Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: Rocky Hill on March 22, 2008, 06:50:54 PM

Title: Uniform Herds
Post by: Rocky Hill on March 22, 2008, 06:50:54 PM
I was just wondering how many people try to breed calves to look almost identical to one another? I don't know of many people in real life who do this was curious if anyone on this site has a uniform herd.

I have my three simmental heifers (half sisters - same sire) bred to the same bull. I'm really excited to see how the calves look. I have one due sometime this summer, another in November, and the last in December. 2 are solid black and the other is a black baldy and the bull is a black baldy as well.  ;D I talked to a bunch of people and they said the calves should be nearly identical.

I also ended up buying two more half sisters to my current three but they're still with their mamas. I buy them young because I plan on showing them as well.

So, does anybody else have an entire herd of half sisters? How similar do their calves look?

I'm excited to see my simme babies when they're born.  ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: shortyisqueen on March 22, 2008, 08:40:48 PM
Rocky Hill, in theory, your calves should be pretty close to the same. There are always variations, but if you get a bull to work on certain cow families, breeding that bull to others of the same cow family should greatly increase the chances of having more 'successes' in your calf crop versus some hits and alot of misses.

Our entire cow herd (90 head) is built on cow families. Most of our cows are at least half sisters, with many being 3/4 and 7/8's related. When we try out a new bull, we usually try to use him on no less than 10 or 15 head so we can get a good cross-section of what cow families he works on. If he works good on certain familes, in the second year of use, he is bred to EVERYTHING in those families. Sometimes you can out-guess yourself breeding 15 different cows to 15 different bulls. This way, we can find out what clicks and what doesn't and tailor large groups to producing the kind of cattle we are aiming for. Our calf crop is pretty uniform in type and kind.

It will be interesting to see how your calves turn out. Of course, the uniformity in your calf crop will also be based on the uniformity of your three heifers - Half sisters can still turn out pretty different. Do they look quite a bit alike now? Did you buy them all from the same herd or are they fairly different in their management? Anything similar on the bottom side of their pedigree?
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: Rocky Hill on March 22, 2008, 09:53:48 PM
They look kind of similar - especially the two solid colored ones. The bwf has a little bit of a cleaner neck and of course, a white face.  ;) The guy who owns the bull I used uses him on a crossbred herd and his calves are pretty impressive.

I might try to post some pictures of them later.  :)

Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: kanshow on March 23, 2008, 10:42:01 AM
 We want our commercial calf crop to look like peas in a pod.  That's what sells them.   That is why our cows are highly related and we use sets of bulls that are related to each other - ET brothers if at all possible.  That's also why we try for the shortest possible calf crop.  Our commercial heifers are usually AI'd to the same bull.    We don't make as much money on the late calf or the oddball that has to be sorted off.   That's what works for us...   

Our PB cows - we do run different types & cow families because we are after different things.   It's good to keep some diversity in this end of it for us. 
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: aj on March 24, 2008, 07:39:30 AM
A.I.ing is good and probably nessecary. But I think the closed herds are kinda neat. I always liked looking at the HUBS shorthorn pedigrees. Alot of times every ancestor for generations back were bred by HUBS. They didn't go for the flavor of the week fad or what was hot. A.I. is great but it tends to be a "me too" philosophy and not nessecarily a planned breeding program. For better or worse I haven't brought in a new female for 15 years or so. I move the population in a general direction with the use of a bull. I wish I had a better a.i. program. ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: itk on March 24, 2008, 10:10:51 AM
I don't think many of us here in Kansas have good AI programs and to some degree has worked to our advantage as a state. Besides HUBS we have Lauers, Loving, Elbee, Terry and many other herds who are just loaded with great cows and the only prefix that shows up on the animals pedigree is the one it was born with.
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: red on March 24, 2008, 12:31:21 PM
my cows are of varying shapes & sizes. I guess I don't expect their calves to look the same but I was them to all look good.

Red
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: stick on March 24, 2008, 12:51:20 PM
I know way back when, there were a lot of Shorthorn herds in Canada, (verify this JIT) that were noted for the uniformity of their calves. One that comes to mind was the Aberfeldy herd. This was before people worried pleasing the tastes of all the different judges.
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: Rocky Hill on March 24, 2008, 04:34:28 PM
Thanks, everyone.  :)

I have 3 crossbred cows and they aren't related at all. One is a holstein, one is a jersey x angus, and the other is a simme x charolais (I am keeping a heifer out of the simme x char though so 2 of them will be related). But all 5 of my simmentals are half sisters.  ;D
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: kanshow on March 24, 2008, 05:12:13 PM
Does anyone remember the Shorthorns at KState?  Wasnt' that herd completely closed (no new genetics added ever) for decades?   Thinking that Walt Smith was the one in charge of that?   Or am I imagining this....   
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: aj on March 24, 2008, 06:38:54 PM
kanshow....you are absolutely right. I know jc and the old timers have talked about it. The herd was linebred and jc told me no recessive genetics ever showed up in all the linebreeding. I assume the herd was dispersed at sometime. :)
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: kanshow on March 24, 2008, 07:42:56 PM
I hate to date myself but I believe that herd was still there when I was there because Dr. Smith was still teaching.   I have looked to see if anything was ever published about them but have found nothing.    I want to say that herd was kept for 30+ years, but again, I have no real data - besides hearsay from old KStaters like my dad.    It would be interesting to me to know what lines that herd was based on too. 
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: GONEWEST on March 25, 2008, 02:01:02 PM
It's much easier to produce a uniform cow herd with purebred cattle. But even then it doesn't turn out the way you think it will. After selecting for type for several generations and having a set of closely related sisters all of the same type, then you can expect some uniformity. I have 7 flush sisters from a clubby bull and a purebred cow and you can't tell that one is related to the other.
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: red on March 25, 2008, 03:10:54 PM
 (welcome) GoneWest!!!!
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: Rocky Hill on March 28, 2008, 05:00:45 PM
My simmentals are purebreds. :)

If you bred a bull and a heifer that have the same dam but different sires, would it be considered inbreding or line breeding?
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: SRU on March 28, 2008, 07:40:30 PM
if the calf is good, it is linebreeding; if the calf is bad, it is inbreeding.
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: aj on June 19, 2019, 08:43:53 AM
I ran across this old post. I was just thinking a couple days ago........my last 3 replacement female batches really look a like. Been breeding the Red Angus-Shorthorn composites for 10 years. The all go back to the Valient bull........sometimes 3 times in the pedigree. That doesn't make em good......it does make em consistent.
Title: Re: Uniform Herds
Post by: mark tenenbaum on June 20, 2019, 08:31:57 AM
The most uniform herds are the ones that set forth a course -dont vary much in type or statistics- and are heavily documented-Waukaru would have to be the most documented herd of almost any breed of cattle. And are not a closed herd-but introduce genetics that are complimentary and work based upon alot of reasearch along with good instincts. I was at the Jr Nationals briefly and got to talk with Toby Jordan-who for at least the past 15 years has been the formulator and disseminator of info -a force behind Waukaru. To say that he is VERY BRIGHT is  an understatement.Real straight forward and down to earth-pretty much like the program. We talked about Kieth Lauer-whos one of the great old school seat of the pants breeders from the age of no tech-His cattle are along the same lines:coming from his instincts and idea of what works- and have had a major influence on just about everyone Dale Allison would be a candidate for the lesser known thread-but had a cowherd that looked like full sibs-they have been "performance tested" since keeping records began.-Jungels is certainly another though they derive various types that are like peas in a pod-I always admired the way they mix mediums and still come up with very useful cattle-They think outside the box some and really make it work with different colors and breeds. Long and short-Its tough to have a completely uniform herd and produce show cattle-without linebreeding the show genetics-JMO-it can lead to cattle that dont perform or calve in a consistent manner -maybe in part due to the changing types and "fads" per se..If I were going to take a performance female and make show cattle with any thing thick Shorthorn Clubby, Maine, Simm etc.-It would be a thick Waukaru-THOSE cattle cross well with just about anything and change in one shot-without losing quality on both sides.Earlier or better known examples would be the Irish (loir valley?) Magics they had -which were some of the stoutest cattle around and for better or worse VORTEC- Hes out of Waukaru Wimple-sired by K A Shakedown-There was a bull by Shakedown called Waukaru First Down-who may have been a full sib or something-Darlee had him. Had a little shoulder but really did a good job for the pre Double Stuff era. O0