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Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: phillse on February 05, 2019, 03:10:07 PM

Title: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 05, 2019, 03:10:07 PM
Thought we might start a discussion on this since the "Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available" thread headed this direction to allow discussion on the Sire Test and allow the other thread to return to the original intent.


https://shorthorn.org/university-of-illinois-sire-test/

https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Sire-Test-Update-Matt-April-2018.pdf
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 05, 2019, 03:35:26 PM
The weaning weights shown in the test are not exactly going to appeal to most commercial cattlemen.

When I look at the data it makes me ask are the females in the U of I herd that low of growth and/or lacking milk production or is the Shorthorn bulls lacking in growth.

At least the Sire Test can point us in the direction of where we need to take the breed if we are going to gain commercial acceptance.

Shorthorns have been at the crossroads for some time.  We need to ask ourselves if we are going to focus on terminal  traits  or are we going to focus on being a maternal breed with adequate growth  or option 3 focus on neither terminal nor maternal traits so long as it has a certain look


I personally think we need to focus on being option 2, maternal cattle with adequate growth and show evidence of longevity, high fertility, with acceptable growth and carcass traits.  If you will focus on being "the great optimizer" 

Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 05, 2019, 04:43:43 PM
I always heard of the Shorthorn as being "The great improver". Is it not possible to mainly aim for the second option, of having cattle with a good maternal base, but have some terminal traits?
A quick epd search of the uk database gave me 3 bulls I have used that I feel fulfill that. I'll attach photos. Also a search of the Irish database shows another example. These 4 bulls have maternal traits of easy calving, good milk etc but also have high growth, good carcass weight and high ribeye area.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 05, 2019, 04:45:56 PM
And the other 2...
There has to be many North American bulls that fit this criteria. Typhoon, Fire Fox and Patent Ace all have North American ancestry.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: turning grass into beef on February 05, 2019, 05:07:03 PM
If I am reading the information correctly the calves were born in September and weaned at about 150 days with no creep.  I have not done the math but I think the steers should end up with an adjusted 205 day weight of around 600 lbs.  If this is correct, then it is up to everyone to decide for themselves if 600 lb steer calves at 205 days with no creep is good or bad.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: GM on February 05, 2019, 05:10:33 PM
This report is very weak in details.  Hard to believe they’d publish it like that.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: turning grass into beef on February 05, 2019, 05:14:09 PM
By the way Phillse, I think we should focus on option 2 as well.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 05, 2019, 05:50:09 PM
If I am reading the information correctly the calves were born in September and weaned at about 150 days with no creep.  I have not done the math but I think the steers should end up with an adjusted 205 day weight of around 600 lbs.  If this is correct, then it is up to everyone to decide for themselves if 600 lb steer calves at 205 days with no creep is good or bad.


That is what I thought to to start with until I saw this in the report

"Weaning weight data listed is adjusted to a 205 day weaning weight. All data has been uploaded to Digital Beef."
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Medium Rare on February 05, 2019, 07:47:59 PM
I always heard of the Shorthorn as being "The great improver". Is it not possible to mainly aim for the second option, of having cattle with a good maternal base, but have some terminal traits?
A quick epd search of the uk database gave me 3 bulls I have used that I feel fulfill that. I'll attach photos. Also a search of the Irish database shows another example. These 4 bulls have maternal traits of easy calving, good milk etc but also have high growth, good carcass weight and high ribeye area.

I don't know how the UK and IGS epds compare, but a negative IMF score is a non starter here. If you're not pushing for a high choice average down the rail you're getting left behind. How far a breeder wants to push IMF is definitely debatable, but it absolutely has to be respectable if you want any piece of the US commercial market.

The question then becomes, just how accurate are 90% of the IMF numbers in the ASA system? Considering how massive a few of the REA and IMF score swings revealed so far are, it's safe to say most of them are probably still a wild ass guess at best. On top of this, for whatever reason, IGS has the shorthorn breed buried in a hole when compared to the other breeds. A suggestion that would address this issue has been brought up to the powers that be, but the potential results are feared. Fear should never restrict progress, especially considering Marc data still shows Shorthorns have nothing to fear.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: wiseguy on February 05, 2019, 08:33:14 PM
I have attached the entire sire summary for both bulls and heifers of the 2017-2018 ASA sire test. I also have the RFI numbers, but that file is way to large to get loaded and still needs some editing to make it easier to read.

The first thing Dr. Shike told us when we went into this venture is the WW would be horrible. Calves are calved late September, no creep and raised on fescue hay. They have seen the same results with the Simmental and Charolais progeny. However, once on feed they took off like crazy. Dr. Shike mentioned the last 60 days on feed the entire group averaged over 4.0 ADG.

I do know the individual kill data is now in the digital beef system. (Which you and I cant see for some reason). The new EPD'S reflect this information. Specifically, my sire Imperative went from the bottom 95% to the top 25% in REA. I agree with Medium Rare. I think all the other carcass data at this point has been a guess at best. I will say Byland Top Gun was the bull I had on my radar before the test based on his carcass EPDS. He DID NOT disappoint, and in my opinion is the go to sire in the breed to improve IMF.

Take a look. I am more than pleased with the data. If I remember correctly the entire group averaged  80% choice or better.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 05, 2019, 09:27:01 PM
The first thing Dr. Shike told us when we went into this venture is the WW would be horrible. Calves are calved late September, no creep and raised on fescue hay. They have seen the same results with the Simmental and Charolais progeny.

Knowing the whole story helps explain the weights.  Thanks for the info
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 05, 2019, 09:43:07 PM
My next question is about fescue hay for you guys in fescue country .  How does fescue hay compare to Bahia and Bermuda hay?
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Hopster1000 on February 05, 2019, 09:59:48 PM
I always heard of the Shorthorn as being "The great improver". Is it not possible to mainly aim for the second option, of having cattle with a good maternal base, but have some terminal traits?
A quick epd search of the uk database gave me 3 bulls I have used that I feel fulfill that. I'll attach photos. Also a search of the Irish database shows another example. These 4 bulls have maternal traits of easy calving, good milk etc but also have high growth, good carcass weight and high ribeye area.

I don't know how the UK and IGS epds compare, but a negative IMF score is a non starter here. If you're not pushing for a high choice average down the rail you're getting left behind. How far a breeder wants to push IMF is definitely debatable, but it absolutely has to be respectable if you want any piece of the US commercial market.

The question then becomes, just how accurate are 90% of the IMF numbers in the ASA system? Considering how massive a few of the REA and IMF score swings revealed so far are, it's safe to say most of them are probably still a wild ass guess at best. On top of this, for whatever reason, IGS has the shorthorn breed buried in a hole when compared to the other breeds. A suggestion that would address this issue has been brought up to the powers that be, but the potential results are feared. Fear should never restrict progress, especially considering Marc data still shows Shorthorns have nothing to fear.

That is the main difference then by far. Your point is excellent. IMF is not considered much at all in the final quality and price of the cattle slaughtered here. It is all about carcass confirmation. That is why so many double muscled breeds are considered better as a beef breed in the UK and Ireland.
However, IMF is now scanned for, but only at the individual breeders decretion, and not always available easily. So comparing the epds of an animals IMF isn't great yet as so few are scanned. One company in Northern Ireland, Hannon Meats, use only shorthorn, and want marbling, which is at least a start.
I would, and probably should, need to start adding IMF to my choice of sires, as it could be what sells in future.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 06, 2019, 09:26:51 AM
so no other breeds. what do numbers mean with no other breeds.
ww seem low?

Knabe raises a good question on the thickest bulls thread.  It would be real interesting to see the Sire test use say bulls representing the top 10% for the same traits of Shorthorns and Simmentals on this same cow base under the same conditions during the same year.

I realize to do this would add considerable cost, but it would statistically give you apples to apples, removing the variable for management and year to year forage and climate conditions.  It would probably be a good start for shorthorns to prove or disprove the perceptions.

I know year ago when Dr. Lipsey was still with the Simmental association he told me and dad that there was no way that a Shorthorn could grow with a Simmental even though the evidence with the bloodlines being used by us at the time showed the Shorthorns performing with or beter than the Simmentals for Birth Weight and weaning weight. 

Shorthorn Bulls used were Mel-bar Rodeo Drive 347, RB Eagle 148.  Simmental Bulls used  were Nichols Legacy G151, Nichols Destiney D12, and TE McCredie G8
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: wiseguy on February 06, 2019, 11:05:58 AM
so no other breeds. what do numbers mean with no other breeds.
ww seem low?

Knabe raises a good question on the thickest bulls thread.  It would be real interesting to see the Sire test use say bulls representing the top 10% for the same traits of Shorthorns and Simmentals on this same cow base under the same conditions during the same year.

I realize to do this would add considerable cost, but it would statistically give you apples to apples, removing the variable for management and year to year forage and climate conditions.  It would probably be a good start for shorthorns to prove or disprove the perceptions.

I know year ago when Dr. Lipsey was still with the Simmental association he told me and dad that there was no way that a Shorthorn could grow with a Simmental even though the evidence with the bloodlines being used by us at the time showed the Shorthorns performing with or beter than the Simmentals for Birth Weight and weaning weight. 

Shorthorn Bulls used were Mel-bar Rodeo Drive 347, RB Eagle 148.  Simmental Bulls used  were Nichols Legacy G151, Nichols Destiney D12, and TE McCredie G8

Unfortunately, the idea of comparing breeds to each other on the same cow base is not going to happen. That was the first question that I asked when we began this sire test. I wanted to get other breeds involved, and compare progeny.

Here is the reality. Angus has the market share and has nothing to prove. Hereford know they can't compete on the grid, that's not their game. No continental breed wants to go against the Shorthorns because they are pretty confident they will get negative results especially when it comes to IMF.

So then I said what if we buy the semen off the open market. Immediately the Universities will walk away because they can't afford to make a breed association mad at them.

So what is the answer? Mike Hora in Iowa is doing another test for Shorthorns that I helped set up. Mike sells all his cattle on the Grid and prides himself on Prime carcasses. Mike bred 70-80 cows to JSF Gauge, Waukaru Optimus, and Byland Top Gun in 2017. He has the calves in the feelot and will be harvesting them  late summer and into fall 2019. 

The great thing about this test is that he will compare them to Gardiner Angus sired calves in the same contemporary group. Side by side feeding. Unfortunately, we won't have the conversion data like the U of I. Same cow base, same feedlot, same kill date, etc.

However, my worry is that no one will take this trial seriously because it was not performed by a "University." Unless of course the Shorthorns fall short. Then the other breeds will say "I told you so!"
But going against Gardiner Angus sires is a tall order.

The reality is that things aren't as simple as people think. An enormous amount of work goes into getting these trails set up, and completed. More importantly, Universities aren't willing to follow the breeds guidelines step by step the way we want them. Sure it would be simple to walk away, but then we are back at the beginning with no data and no leg to stand on.

The ASA could do a better job of being transparent. Heck I wouldn't know any of this information if I wasn't a part of both trials. However, they aren't going to tell people why things didn't work out. Their job is to only promote the the good things.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: aj on February 06, 2019, 11:32:18 AM
As I understand it.........marbling and maternal will fit together nicely. Whereas extreme muscle and growth is antagonistic with strong maternal economically important traits
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 06, 2019, 11:50:21 AM
On top of this, for whatever reason, IGS has the shorthorn breed buried in a hole when compared to the other breeds. A suggestion that would address this issue has been brought up to the powers that be, but the potential results are feared.

How do we address the issue of the ISG hole for Shorthorns?
Isn't ISG basically Simmental leading the way with other breeds collaborating?

Would it help if people put Shorthorn Bulls in as Foundation animals in the Simmental database and turned in data to Simmental.

Would it help to put Simmental bulls in the Shorthorn database as Foundation animals with data collected and turned in to Shorthorn.

How would one go about putting in an AI Sire from an AI Stud of another breed that they do not personally own into the Shorthorn database?

How would one go about putting in an AI Sire from an AI Stud from Shorthorn that they do not personally own into the Simmental database?

I know with the small numbers I have (roughly 10-15 Shorthorn females and 10-15 Simmental females) that it would not make much of a dent in the data.  The question is would it help enough to make a difference?
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 06, 2019, 11:56:11 AM



As I understand it.........marbling and maternal will fit together nicely. Whereas extreme muscle and growth is antagonistic with strong maternal economically important traits
That is the reason I used the terms adequate growth and carcass.  In my opinion, maternal traits should be first and foremost but the resulting calves must still have reasonable or adequate  growth, muscle, and carcass traits to be commercially viable even in a crossbreeding situation.
I personally think we need to focus on being option 2, maternal cattle with adequate growth and show evidence of longevity, high fertility, with acceptable growth and carcass traits.  If you will focus on being "the great optimizer"
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: aj on February 06, 2019, 12:55:45 PM
I agree. I wasn't being critical.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: wiseguy on February 06, 2019, 01:11:51 PM
On top of this, for whatever reason, IGS has the shorthorn breed buried in a hole when compared to the other breeds. A suggestion that would address this issue has been brought up to the powers that be, but the potential results are feared.

How do we address the issue of the ISG hole for Shorthorns?
Isn't ISG basically Simmental leading the way with other breeds collaborating?

Would it help if people put Shorthorn Bulls in as Foundation animals in the Simmental database and turned in data to Simmental.

Would it help to put Simmental bulls in the Shorthorn database as Foundation animals with data collected and turned in to Shorthorn.

How would one go about putting in an AI Sire from an AI Stud of another breed that they do not personally own into the Shorthorn database?

How would one go about putting in an AI Sire from an AI Stud from Shorthorn that they do not personally own into the Simmental database?

I know with the small numbers I have (roughly 10-15 Shorthorn females and 10-15 Simmental females) that it would not make much of a dent in the data.  The question is would it help enough to make a difference?

Attached you will find Saskvalley Imperative's numbers in the IGS system. This run must be a little old as his EPDs are not up to date. I believe that all the sires from the sire test have been put in the IGS system. One thing I have pushed for is the implementation of the API index in shorthorns. Nothing makes more sense to me than an All Purpose Index. This however includes Stayability as the most important value and people have reservations about this figure. I for one think that the most valuable trait available to use is knowing what to expect for cow longevity.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: huntaway on February 06, 2019, 01:26:45 PM
On top of this, for whatever reason, IGS has the shorthorn breed buried in a hole when compared to the other breeds. A suggestion that would address this issue has been brought up to the powers that be, but the potential results are feared.

How do we address the issue of the ISG hole for Shorthorns?
Isn't ISG basically Simmental leading the way with other breeds collaborating?

Would it help if people put Shorthorn Bulls in as Foundation animals in the Simmental database and turned in data to Simmental.

Would it help to put Simmental bulls in the Shorthorn database as Foundation animals with data collected and turned in to Shorthorn.

How would one go about putting in an AI Sire from an AI Stud of another breed that they do not personally own into the Shorthorn database?

How would one go about putting in an AI Sire from an AI Stud from Shorthorn that they do not personally own into the Simmental database?

I know with the small numbers I have (roughly 10-15 Shorthorn females and 10-15 Simmental females) that it would not make much of a dent in the data.  The question is would it help enough to make a difference?

Will be interesting how the epd's adjust when all the Australian data is added to the system. The are alot of well recorded large herds that have been carcass scanning a high percent of heifers and bulls for a long time and i believe would intend to do alot of DNA testing. Not sure if the durham project data would be used but that would be very valuable if it did.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 06, 2019, 01:38:35 PM
I agree. I wasn't being critical.

I did not think you were being critical.  In fact you are correct that for the most part terminal traits and maternal do not really mix. 

In truth, if someone claims cattle line "xyz" can do it all they have a line that really does nothing well.  That being said there has to be acceptable levels of performance that can then be line crossed or crossbred to produce desired market terminal animals.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Medium Rare on February 06, 2019, 08:42:39 PM
Will be interesting how the epd's adjust when all the Australian data is added to the system. The are alot of well recorded large herds that have been carcass scanning a high percent of heifers and bulls for a long time and i believe would intend to do alot of DNA testing. Not sure if the durham project data would be used but that would be very valuable if it did.

How far out is this?

I've been waiting to see what happens to Kookaburra's numbers after hundreds of his progeny scans hit the IGS system.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 06, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Thats the kind of real world testing that needs to get out-I hate to say It-I think there would be alot more of credibility with everyday commercial people if you guys could get the numbers out rather than an Association -And PS-I saw the ad on  your 2 young sale bull calves coming up-I dont rant on Canadian genetics much-but they are WAY GOOD-Looked em up-JMO some of the cattle like Sonny and CSF Optimizer have to add to my version of eye candy-BUT THAT BULL SASKVALLEY CHALLENGER sure must be a changer BW wise along with being thick-even though his EPDS do not reflect that yet. Have the ones you have had all been low BW like  the two I"m writing about? O0
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: coyote on February 06, 2019, 10:10:16 PM
Quote
Will be interesting how the epd's adjust when all the Australian data is added to the system. The are alot of well recorded large herds that have been carcass scanning a high percent of heifers and bulls for a long time and i believe would intend to do alot of DNA testing. Not sure if the durham project data would be used but that would be very valuable if it did.

It sure will be interesting. I have looked around a bit on the Australian Shorthorn EBV's web site. I found a bull that was used a bit in North America with over 250 offspring recorded and his BW epd is 4.2 with an accuracy of 77% which would mean his calves are heavier than the ave. Shorthorn bull. In Australia he had 135 offspring and his EBV is 2.3 with an accuracy of 95% which is lighter than the ave Shorthorn bull showing he is calving ease.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: phillse on February 07, 2019, 06:20:40 AM
Newest article release.
https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Sire-Test-Performance-Review-Feb19.pdf
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: wiseguy on February 07, 2019, 11:26:33 AM
Thats the kind of real world testing that needs to get out-I hate to say It-I think there would be alot more of credibility with everyday commercial people if you guys could get the numbers out rather than an Association -And PS-I saw the ad on  your 2 young sale bull calves coming up-I dont rant on Canadian genetics much-but they are WAY GOOD-Looked em up-JMO some of the cattle like Sonny and CSF Optimizer have to add to my version of eye candy-BUT THAT BULL SASKVALLEY CHALLENGER sure must be a changer BW wise along with being thick-even though his EPDS do not reflect that yet. Have the ones you have had all been low BW like  the two I"m writing about? O0

Thanks Mark. Challenger has done a great job thus far. He does seem to be moderating BW, while not giving up much in terms of performance. I agree that with time his EPDs will adjust to fall more in line with what we are experiencing. I need to send in his DNA to get genomic epds. He was slated to go in this years sire test, but when I called Matt to enter him they already had all the slots full. I appreciate the kind words on the sale bulls. Maybe I'll start a thread on them once we are done picturing this weekend.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 07, 2019, 07:57:38 PM
I"d sure like to see them from behind-Stevie Wonder could see the quality in those calves-If you can created a package like them that is CE retains  the look:along with at least the carcass quality of the big bull ;you would have something there. With a combo that alot of people could use-Someone with the wherewithall-needs to flush one of Wernings best Red Simm cows to a bull along the lines of your younger ones-And come up with one that is showy enough to sire calves for people as a plus. The plus bulls Ive seen lately that are showing dont show me a whole lot:I think people would use a really good one:if it had all the goods-I think the Same thing about the two Commodity sons of Dales and Docs-Re potential uses.What I do not have is an in depth knowledge of where simms actually are in terms of the important traits O0
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: -XBAR- on February 08, 2019, 01:15:30 PM
Quote
Will be interesting how the epd's adjust when all the Australian data is added to the system. The are alot of well recorded large herds that have been carcass scanning a high percent of heifers and bulls for a long time and i believe would intend to do alot of DNA testing. Not sure if the durham project data would be used but that would be very valuable if it did.

It sure will be interesting. I have looked around a bit on the Australian Shorthorn EBV's web site. I found a bull that was used a bit in North America with over 250 offspring recorded and his BW epd is 4.2 with an accuracy of 77% which would mean his calves are heavier than the ave. Shorthorn bull. In Australia he had 135 offspring and his EBV is 2.3 with an accuracy of 95% which is lighter than the ave Shorthorn bull showing he is calving ease.

Being lighter than ‘the average Australia shorthorn bull’ certainly doesn’t equate to being calving ease.   

This highlights why knowing what breed average is before looking at epds is so important.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 08, 2019, 04:45:57 PM
RE Gardiner Angus x Shorthorn feedlot results.Do an article of your own in one of the well read MAGS Midwestern farmer or whatever-The carcass results dont lie-and thats the end result the true end users (the ones that eat the beef or serve it in thier establishments) are looking for. You are plenty qualified: and it really doesnt take a mind boogling array of mathematical juxtaposistions-x number of steers sird by x y z Shorthorn bulls on frmales sired by  Pine Drive Big Sky (just kidding) and xyz a bc d Angus sires as a typical cross section gained x amount and graded this many Choice Prime select etc-The highest number in the History of cattle or whatever you can draw as a true comparison to similar tests O0
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: huntaway on February 10, 2019, 01:51:03 AM
Will be interesting how the epd's adjust when all the Australian data is added to the system. The are alot of well recorded large herds that have been carcass scanning a high percent of heifers and bulls for a long time and i believe would intend to do alot of DNA testing. Not sure if the durham project data would be used but that would be very valuable if it did.

How far out is this?

I've been waiting to see what happens to Kookaburra's numbers after hundreds of his progeny scans hit the IGS system.

I'm not sure. I know that they did a mock run and there was some movement in the ranking of bulls. The breeder i talked to felt bulls with more American influence were benefited more but they must have been happy enough to decide to go that way. I think the ability to utilise DNA was the main advantage and what they were not offered through ABRI

The main test will be if you can select a trait and by using high ranking sires for that trait move your herd in that direction. The ABRI EBV's have shown to be able to do this in a number of progeny tests.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: huntaway on February 10, 2019, 02:28:35 AM
Quote
Will be interesting how the epd's adjust when all the Australian data is added to the system. The are alot of well recorded large herds that have been carcass scanning a high percent of heifers and bulls for a long time and i believe would intend to do alot of DNA testing. Not sure if the durham project data would be used but that would be very valuable if it did.

It sure will be interesting. I have looked around a bit on the Australian Shorthorn EBV's web site. I found a bull that was used a bit in North America with over 250 offspring recorded and his BW epd is 4.2 with an accuracy of 77% which would mean his calves are heavier than the ave. Shorthorn bull. In Australia he had 135 offspring and his EBV is 2.3 with an accuracy of 95% which is lighter than the ave Shorthorn bull showing he is calving ease.
I have seen this and the reverse a number of times. I dont think they have the focus on bwt that North America do so it wouldn't surprise me if their average birthweight was higher.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: beebe on February 14, 2019, 09:50:36 PM
What a shame they did not do a shear force test while they were collecting data.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: knabe on February 14, 2019, 11:28:51 PM
What a shame they did not do a shear force test while they were collecting data.


cost. a 1" square or close to that is taken out of a cooked piece of meat.  thats probably why.


thats why people are working on other techniques.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: beebe on February 14, 2019, 11:45:27 PM
I am working with Dr. Allen Williams ultra sound that measures tenderness.  My Shorthorn cows did extremely well compared to the rest of my cows.  I suggested it to the commercial acceptance committee but there seems to be little interest.  If they would ultra sound them before they harvested them and did the shear force test, they would know if it was accurate.  If it is then they could know while an animal is still alive.  That would be a real asset in breeding choices.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 15, 2019, 06:26:11 AM
Who is on this “commercial acceptance committee” ?

It’s clear to me the higher ups in the shorthorn breed don’t want commercial acceptance. They want to keep doing what they’re doing. A small group of breeders control the direction of the whole breed. What a joke.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Boreal on February 15, 2019, 08:13:45 AM
I am working with Dr. Allen Williams ultra sound that measures tenderness.  My Shorthorn cows did extremely well compared to the rest of my cows.  I suggested it to the commercial acceptance committee but there seems to be little interest.  If they would ultra sound them before they harvested them and did the shear force test, they would know if it was accurate.  If it is then they could know while an animal is still alive.  That would be a real asset in breeding choices.

It’s certainly an interesting exercise, and would perhaps be useful to know which animals exhibit a greater degree of tenderness - as it is obviously strongly linked to profitability of slaughtered cattle. Again though, most ranchers profit from live cattle and tenderness appears (with the limited research done) to be a terminal trait inversely correlated with skeletal maturity. Would selecting for tenderness inadvertently select for later maturing (less fertile) cattle? If tender beef is the goal, above all else, why not use a breed like Piedmontese in a rota-terminal system?
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: knabe on February 15, 2019, 08:32:45 AM
how does anyone in the industry profit from tenderness.


why are later maturing less fertile. don't they just mature later?


the first producers who combine wagyu, pied's, and something else that is homo polled, homo myostain, "homo" marbling, homo black, solid patterned will probably rule the day.


no need for "research" of tiny incrmental gains that no dna test allows for the potential rapid progress of the above for a lot less wasted time and effort will probably rule the day.


the above is already underway.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Boreal on February 15, 2019, 08:55:47 AM
how does anyone in the industry profit from tenderness.


You answered your question: the first producers who combine wagyu, pied's, and something else that is homo polled, homo myostain, "homo" marbling, homo black, solid patterned will probably rule the day.

why are later maturing less fertile. don't they just mature later?

If you wanna breed heifers at 2 you could use that argument. Otherwise early maturing = more likely to breed first cycle = more likely to calve at 2 = more likely to rebreed.




no need for "research" of tiny incrmental gains that no dna test allows for the potential rapid progress of the above for a lot less wasted time and effort will probably rule the day.

You may be right here but sounds pretty snake-oily to me.



Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 15, 2019, 10:01:41 AM
how does anyone in the industry profit from tenderness.


why are later maturing less fertile. don't they just mature later?


the first producers who combine wagyu, pied's, and something else that is homo polled, homo myostain, "homo" marbling, homo black, solid patterned will probably rule the day.


no need for "research" of tiny incrmental gains that no dna test allows for the potential rapid progress of the above for a lot less wasted time and effort will probably rule the day.


the above is already underway.

How does one profit? In my world, a more tender product equals happier customers which lead to more customers. Giving me more opportunities to avoid the sale barn. Locally produced food is hot right now. We just signed on to a farmers market to sell beef as well as pork. A nice tender cut of meat is a great way for return customers. If I can promote the shorthorn breed in any favorable light that is legit, it’s an additional win. In order to find a niche, your product has to stand out. Tenderness is above all else critical to a good eating experience
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: beebe on February 15, 2019, 10:51:46 AM
how does anyone in the industry profit from tenderness.


why are later maturing less fertile. don't they just mature later?


the first producers who combine wagyu, pied's, and something else that is homo polled, homo myostain, "homo" marbling, homo black, solid patterned will probably rule the day.


no need for "research" of tiny incrmental gains that no dna test allows for the potential rapid progress of the above for a lot less wasted time and effort will probably rule the day.


the above is already underway.
I sell grass fed beef, tenderness is more important to my customers than marbling.  I have never had a comment on the marbling, I very often get comments on the tenderness.  If a steak is tough I won't have a good eating experience no matter what the marbling.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: beebe on February 15, 2019, 10:56:30 AM
Who is on this “commercial acceptance committee” ?

It’s clear to me the higher ups in the shorthorn breed don’t want commercial acceptance. They want to keep doing what they’re doing. A small group of breeders control the direction of the whole breed. What a joke.

I don't remember everyone on it, Rick Osterday chaired it.  There were names that I recognized and names I did not.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Medium Rare on February 15, 2019, 10:56:57 AM
Who is on this “commercial acceptance committee” ?

It’s clear to me the higher ups in the shorthorn breed don’t want commercial acceptance. They want to keep doing what they’re doing. A small group of breeders control the direction of the whole breed. What a joke.

Assuming the website is up to date it's Rick Osterday, Lee Miller, Ed Kruse, & Matt Woolfolk.

I sit through one one of the committee conference calls quite a while back, but I forget which committee it actually was. There was a lot of ideas discussed from some highly respected sources as well as relatively unknown breeders. It wasn't long after that a positive change was implemented based on input from breeders who were on that call. I can't think of a single name on the call that I'd consider to be a part of the small group I assume you refer to.

Have you checked out the current BOD or spoke with any of them one on one? I think you might find their conversations interesting. Even the ones who make their money selling halter animals have commercial acceptance on their minds and want the system set up for those who concentrate solely on commercial animals to be able to succeed.

Recent Facebook conversations make it pretty clear some of the commercial breeders are very ok with doing nothing and bitching form the sidelines instead of getting educated and doing what they can. I'm to the point that any commercial breeder who is not turning in data beyond bw might as well be a fly on the wall. I have many issues with many things, but complaining without even basic data participation does no one any good.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 15, 2019, 11:40:37 AM
Who is on this “commercial acceptance committee” ?

It’s clear to me the higher ups in the shorthorn breed don’t want commercial acceptance. They want to keep doing what they’re doing. A small group of breeders control the direction of the whole breed. What a joke.

Assuming the website is up to date it's Rick Osterday, Lee Miller, Ed Kruse, & Matt Woolfolk.

I sit through one one of the committee conference calls quite a while back, but I forget which committee it actually was. There was a lot of ideas discussed from some highly respected sources as well as relatively unknown breeders. It wasn't long after that a positive change was implemented based on input from breeders who were on that call. I can't think of a single name on the call that I'd consider to be a part of the small group I assume you refer to.

Have you checked out the current BOD or spoke with any of them one on one? I think you might find their conversations interesting. Even the ones who make their money selling halter animals have commercial acceptance on their minds and want the system set up for those who concentrate solely on commercial animals to be able to succeed.

Recent Facebook conversations make it pretty clear some of the commercial breeders are very ok with doing nothing and bitching form the sidelines instead of getting educated and doing what they can. I'm to the point that any commercial breeder who is not turning in data beyond bw might as well be a fly on the wall. I have many issues with many things, but complaining without even basic data participation does no one any good.

I’m not on FB and now that I see Lee Miller’s name on the committee I have to assume there is something being done. Lee is as good of a person as I’ve ever met in this business. I don’t know the others but I know for a fact Lee wants this breed to grow and improve. It still is frustrating to have a disconnect or a perceived disconnect between members and directors.

I was referring earlier to the higher ups being the ones who ran Bolze out.None of those mentioned above are the ones who did this.  That’s where the disconnect began though. Bolze was going to do the breed a lot of good in my opinion. . I have not called any BOD’s nor have I called the ASA. I’ve spoke with others who have tried to and gotten nowhere. I also just started registering cattle again and I submitted more than just a BW. If the butcher we use had a freakin live scale I’d submit the weights at slaughter as well. Maybe I’ll buy me a scale soon to take those other measurements needed. Like cow weights and all that.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on February 15, 2019, 02:02:51 PM

In my world, a more tender product equals happier customers which lead to more customers.
In order to find a niche, your product has to stand out.
Tenderness is above all else critical to a good eating experience
[/quote]

PERFECT!
PERFECT!

Shorthorn must to got to origin.
A maternal breed with great meat quality.
A breed that can insert docility and milking hability, being an usefull breed for F1 producers. But, also with a potential - not extreme potential - for weight gain and carcass shape.....but, the point is TENDERNESS.

Here were I live we love a meat wit a good fat cover and now, marbling is the word. I think that marbling is being so much superestimated, the point is tenderness.

Marbled meat is great for barbecue, for some special kind of kitchen, but the daily meat must to be TENDER!

So, I ask you all....what is your choice, a marbled non tender meat, or a tender no so marbled one?
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: beebe on February 15, 2019, 03:44:40 PM

In my world, a more tender product equals happier customers which lead to more customers.
In order to find a niche, your product has to stand out.
Tenderness is above all else critical to a good eating experience

PERFECT!
PERFECT!


Shorthorn must to got to origin.
A maternal breed with great meat quality.
A breed that can insert docility and milking hability, being an usefull breed for F1 producers. But, also with a potential - not extreme potential - for weight gain and carcass shape.....but, the point is TENDERNESS.

Here were I live we love a meat wit a good fat cover and now, marbling is the word. I think that marbling is being so much superestimated, the point is tenderness.

Marbled meat is great for barbecue, for some special kind of kitchen, but the daily meat must to be TENDER!

So, I ask you all....what is your choice, a marbled non tender meat, or a tender no so marbled one?
[/quote]
Exactly, well said.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: Medium Rare on February 15, 2019, 04:26:04 PM
I’m not on FB and now that I see Lee Miller’s name on the committee I have to assume there is something being done. Lee is as good of a person as I’ve ever met in this business. I don’t know the others but I know for a fact Lee wants this breed to grow and improve. It still is frustrating to have a disconnect or a perceived disconnect between members and directors.

I was referring earlier to the higher ups being the ones who ran Bolze out.None of those mentioned above are the ones who did this.  That’s where the disconnect began though. Bolze was going to do the breed a lot of good in my opinion. . I have not called any BOD’s nor have I called the ASA. I’ve spoke with others who have tried to and gotten nowhere. I also just started registering cattle again and I submitted more than just a BW. If the butcher we use had a freakin live scale I’d submit the weights at slaughter as well. Maybe I’ll buy me a scale soon to take those other measurements needed. Like cow weights and all that.

If you start turning in cow weights at weaning, you'll be one of the very few of any breed. It seems that no one wants to admit how big their cows are. I'm not sure what everyone fears, despite what all the magazines tell us, it seems like the average cow man here very rarely, if ever, picks the 1,000lb cow out of a pen that has 1,300-1,400lb cows in it. They're probably even more likely to pick a 1,600lb cow over the 1,000lb cow.

I do wish they would have measured the calves in the sire test. It only takes a few seconds to stick one when you've already got them in the scale and it would have helped to have an idea on frame when looking at the weights.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: turning grass into beef on February 15, 2019, 05:40:53 PM
Here is a quotes from medium rare.

"If you start turning in cow weights at weaning, you'll be one of the very few of any breed. It seems that no one wants to admit how big their cows are.

You may be right.  But some purebred breeders run their cows like a commercial herd.  Most commercial cows are never near a scale until they are sold as culls.
Our scale is at our home yard where we winter our calves.  Thus we are able to get weights on our calves.  Our cows are out grazing grass in the summer and some kind of grazing (standing corn, swath, bale grazing etc.) for the winter.  They are never near the scale until they are culled.  We fatten our cull cows and sell them a load at a time, so we never take the time to weigh individual cows.  Our cows usually average between 1400 and 1500 pounds when fat.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: aj on February 16, 2019, 10:32:43 AM
If the breed differentiates itself with a tenderness advantage.........seems like we need to direct market the product somehow. Easier said than done.
Title: Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
Post by: beebe on February 16, 2019, 03:20:24 PM
Direct marketing is more profitable depending on the customer.  I work with a guy that runs a restaurant that only serves grass fed beef.  If we new which Shorthorns were the tender ones it would be a great asset in making breeding choices.  With grass fed beef growing and  commodity beef losing market share it seems like a breed with a tenderness advantage should be using that advantage and identifying where the most tender genes are.