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Offline Doc

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2008, 09:53:49 PM »
I don't see many Purebred RA breeders going that direction. The major percentage of RA breeders are geared for producing bulls for the commercial cattle market. In comparison to our black hided cousins, we are a small (though rapidly growing) genetic pool. Interest in the RA cattle is at an all time high and truthfully until the supply outgrows the demand I don't think that there will be alot of breeders expanding into the Duram Red program. I know of a few that are trying a little, but they are really looking for show steers not bulls or females. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the Duram Red program started to make the S H cross cattle more commercialy accepted? I may be clear off base on that but someone explained that to me one time. What are your thoughts Doc?

 
RW, I think you are correct about the reason behind the DR program. Now I don't want to offend any RA breeders , but in my part of the country if you want to be commercially accepted then , right or wrong they need to be black hided. Not even solid red calves (which you're not guaranteed with a RA bull) brings what a black hide does. Now I'm just a small breeder , but if I'm going to produce a crossbred calf for the Shorthorn Plus program then I'm going to try to produce that blue roan that is going to bring a premium not just another red or roan crossbred. Like I said nothing personal just a business decision. JMHO.
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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2008, 10:11:31 PM »
Doc - I have watched the trend for the last 10 years in the black vs red hide issue. It started west of the Missouri river. 10 years ago bull customers of mine in central NE were selling their commercial feeders for the same if not more money than the blacks while here at home there was a 2 to 5 cent difference per pound. Today in my area there is not much difference with quality red calves topping the market from time to time. I don't think the trend has crossed East of the Mississippi river yet but I think it will. Truthfully, the whole black hide thing has been a masterful program laid out by the angus assn. It has enabled people that don't really know cattle to be order buyers for the fact that the mind set was - if they're black they're good. This also explains why so many breeds went black in the last several years when genetically there was no black gene to be found in the purebred animals DNA. In todays commercial market a black hide could be anything - holstein, angus, simmental, gelbvieh, saler, etc, etc. or a combination of any or all of them. I think that this is part of the reason that the color gap is narrowing. A black hide only guarentees that the animal has the domminant black hair gene somewhere in its ancestry. RW
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Offline Doc

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2008, 06:05:09 AM »
  RW, I don't disagree with you at all on your thoughts. And like you said the Angus Assoc. has done an OUTSTANDING job of marketing. When you go to a restaurant or store & hear someone ask for certified  Angus beef & these same people think if a cow has horns it's a bull & if it don't then it's a cow, well then like I said the Angus people have done a great job marketing.
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Offline aj

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2008, 07:28:31 AM »
I think the the red angus breed is such a wonderfull story. They had a mandatory performance reporting from day one. They selected cattle by data and not the showring. I don't think they have hardly been much of a showring deal till lately. I think the Shorthorn-Red Angus composite is wonderfull. It combines the best of two worlds. Since they are a f1.....consistency on the next cross is in question. I do think that that(because the durham red deal has mandatory reporting also) that some awfull good cattle could be developed. It will take the right kind of selection pressure and time. I guess they are the wrong color but I think people are beginning to question the value of color. jmo  :)
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Offline itk

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2008, 08:06:10 AM »
IMO the DR program is a joke and like all F1 programs only hurts breed identity over the long haul. I have only talked to one RA breeder who has heard of the program. The only people making money on the program are the RA breeders who are selling semen to shorthorn breeders.
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Offline justintime

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2008, 08:11:04 AM »
I think the Durham Red program has a place in the industry. In many places, red cattle are still popular. I have seen lots of solid red Simmental bulls selling for more than the solid black ones for the past few years. We have started to see a trend here with both red and black Angus breeders seriously looking at Shorthorn genetics. I think this is happening here simply because the market for Black and Red Angus bulls is near the saturation point. It is really hard for a new Angus breeder to start to sell his bulls. Here where I live, there are probably over 500 bulls of each red and black Angus that sell each spring in March and April... and that is within 50 miles of me. One very prominent Red Angus breeder has been through our bulls a few times already this spring. He runs close to 350 Red Angus cows, and is thinking he wants to take a portion of his herd and develop a set of F1 females that would be easy to sell. He thinks Red Angus X Shorthorn is a good way to go. I have also had 2 Black Angus breeders request bull sale catalogues  for our bull sale. Both told me they are thinking of doing a two cycle AI program and then using a roan or white Shorthorn for their clean up bull. They feel the F1 blue roan calves would be easier to sell than straight Angus from the end of their calf crops. Whether they buy a Shorthorn or not, at least they are looking and thinking about it.

In some areas composite bulls are very popular and sell for good dollars. I think the Durham Red program could fit into this market. I have flushed two of my best solid red donors to Mulberry and got 28 grade 1 embryos from the two flushes. I am implanting a bunch of them  in two weeks. I feel the best way to know if this program is going to work is to try it.
In regards to a previous post about getting Mulberry semen in the US, it is available there . If you want some, call Bryan McKenzie at Brylor Red Angus.
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Offline Show Heifer

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 08:22:46 AM »
Before the other breeds catch up to the angus, they had better get there assoc off their butts and get to running.
I have dealt with darn near all the "big breeds" assoc, and although I have dealt with nice people in most offices, they have a long way to go to have the quality of assoc promotion that the angus has. Not returning calls, not sending info, just flat not answering...all leads me back to the blk angus assoc. Granted they have their problems, but they seem to have fewer than the others.

This is a transition time in most breeds of cattle. With the garbage can full of information that is available now to the cattle producer, producers are able to select (sometimes singling) for certain traits. The angus breed has headed down that "carcass at all cost" road, much to the ruin of the maternal traits the angus were famous for. The red angus is headed down the "show ring" and performance, much to the ruin of their calving ease and maternal traits. The simmis are headed for the "anything but purebred and milk" road. The purebreds just can't compete against the "% cattle". The shorthorns, well, not sure where they are headed, but it doesn't look good in my neighborhood. Do they even grow (anything but hair?)  anymore? The maines were headed down a very bad road of "physical looks" despite fatal genetic defects....some in the breed are changing this...but not near fast enough. The hereford breed, is ruining itself by trying to compete in the show ring appeal and forgetting it too, was orginally a maternal, hardy, live off of nothing breed. Hell, I even heard of a longhorn breeder PULLING calves. Are they ruining that breed too?
And don't even get me on the "registered" percentage cattle....in my time, they were called commercial, and did not have registration papers. Again my statement "there are no purebred/fullblood breeds left anymore. NONE."
I know their are exceptions to these "generalizations" (so get off that horse), but it is happening. Just look at the photos from 10 years ago, look at the EPD's from 10 years ago.... and if you want a real shock, look back 20 years.
And sometimes these changes are brought forth by the board, and the assoc, not nessecarily from the breeders. But they are "herded" into the area that the "experts" think they need to go. (Does that sound familiar RA breeders????)

Well, now that I have fallen completely off the horse, I'm going now.


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Offline SWMO

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2008, 11:04:40 AM »
RW,  I personally think for the commercial producer that the Red Angus X Charolais is the cats meow.  You don't have any rat tails and the color is highly acceptable in the sale barn.  Blondes they call 'em. ::)  We have really liked that cross and will use a Red Angus bull on some of our smaller first calf charolais heifers.

Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2008, 12:18:40 PM »
IMO the DR program is a joke and like all F1 programs only hurts breed identity over the long haul. I have only talked to one RA breeder who has heard of the program. The only people making money on the program are the RA breeders who are selling semen to shorthorn breeders.

ITK - You are right in the fact that this program has not been promoted well in the RA breed. Truthfully if I didn't have a lot of friends on the show road, I would probably have never heard of it either. The vast majority of RA breeders don't show and several are anti show all togather, so if you never get out to hear the word of mouth, it is a hidden program. If I was smart I would probably run a full page add in the SH magazine promoting our herd bulls, but I've never been accused of that! RW
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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2008, 12:33:47 PM »
Before the other breeds catch up to the angus, they had better get there assoc off their butts and get to running.
I have dealt with darn near all the "big breeds" assoc, and although I have dealt with nice people in most offices, they have a long way to go to have the quality of assoc promotion that the angus has. Not returning calls, not sending info, just flat not answering...all leads me back to the blk angus assoc. Granted they have their problems, but they seem to have fewer than the others.

This is a transition time in most breeds of cattle. With the garbage can full of information that is available now to the cattle producer, producers are able to select (sometimes singling) for certain traits. The angus breed has headed down that "carcass at all cost" road, much to the ruin of the maternal traits the angus were famous for. The red angus is headed down the "show ring" and performance, much to the ruin of their calving ease and maternal traits. The simmis are headed for the "anything but purebred and milk" road. The purebreds just can't compete against the "% cattle". The shorthorns, well, not sure where they are headed, but it doesn't look good in my neighborhood. Do they even grow (anything but hair?)  anymore? The maines were headed down a very bad road of "physical looks" despite fatal genetic defects....some in the breed are changing this...but not near fast enough. The hereford breed, is ruining itself by trying to compete in the show ring appeal and forgetting it too, was orginally a maternal, hardy, live off of nothing breed. Hell, I even heard of a longhorn breeder PULLING calves. Are they ruining that breed too?
And don't even get me on the "registered" percentage cattle....in my time, they were called commercial, and did not have registration papers. Again my statement "there are no purebred/fullblood breeds left anymore. NONE."
I know their are exceptions to these "generalizations" (so get off that horse), but it is happening. Just look at the photos from 10 years ago, look at the EPD's from 10 years ago.... and if you want a real shock, look back 20 years.
And sometimes these changes are brought forth by the board, and the assoc, not nessecarily from the breeders. But they are "herded" into the area that the "experts" think they need to go. (Does that sound familiar RA breeders????)

Well, now that I have fallen completely off the horse, I'm going now.




I'm not sure that the breed as a whole is getting away from the calving ease/maternal traits that it has been known for. For sure some of the high profile herds that you see advertising and at the shows have gone that way, but these are some of the same people that may have a little trouble finding that new born calf in the pasture for two or three months or wean calves between 900 and 1000 + lbs "without creep" consistantly. I always get a grin out of those calves that wean off the cow at 900#s and have a yearling weight of 1250#s. The few that I have that bump the 900# WW usually are knocking on 1500#s YW. I know of one high profile herd that a year ago during calving season were done by march 15th and had started in January. When show season rolled around, they had a few late march calves, several aprils and a hand full of mays - guess where I won't buy cattle from. RW
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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2008, 12:38:30 PM »
RW,  I personally think for the commercial producer that the Red Angus X Charolais is the cats meow.  You don't have any rat tails and the color is highly acceptable in the sale barn.  Blondes they call 'em. ::)  We have really liked that cross and will use a Red Angus bull on some of our smaller first calf charolais heifers.

SWMO - One of my best bull customers has a Charolais base cow herd. He calls the calves "butterscotch" color and no longer sells through a sale barn. He has from 2 to 4 buyers come to his place and buy his steers and "off" heifers every year and sells his "top line" heifers as replacements. Super good cross that is working for him! RW
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Offline bradycreek

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2008, 02:12:00 PM »
By creep feeding all a calf can eat how much extra weight can you add to the 205 adjusted WW?
What is your best estimate?
From my experience I just creep feed one can per calf per day and they seemed to do better and I can tell a difference that paid off this winter.
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Offline chambero

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2008, 08:37:49 PM »
I think the Hoodoo Ranch may be going away from straight Charolais to the Charolais-Red Angus cross.

Offline Show Heifer

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2008, 09:11:13 PM »
Rw- right on!!! I get a chuckle out of those huge WW and then those average YW!!
What is your best estimate on what a 900 pound WW should weigh at yearling?  1500? 1800?

And your right, there are a few good breeders in all breeds staying to the traditional traits while improving them!!

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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: weaning weight
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2008, 10:29:31 PM »
Rw- right on!!! I get a chuckle out of those huge WW and then those average YW!!
What is your best estimate on what a 900 pound WW should weigh at yearling?  1500? 1800?

And your right, there are a few good breeders in all breeds staying to the traditional traits while improving them!!


One of my senior herd sire weaned off at 805 and he had a yearling weight of 1520. I would assume that a 900# WW should be 1600#s plus, especialy the way some of the bulls are fed today. I'm not much of a fan of putting a self feeder out and letting them run to it until sale day but I know alot of people that do.
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