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Offline afhm

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Who would you clone?
« on: October 07, 2007, 04:45:48 PM »
Here is another spin off of Show Heifer's thread.  If you could clone any cow/steer/bull dead or alive, whether you own it or not what would you choose.  You can pick more than 1.

For me I would consider these cows Cookie, 4072, Harrieta, Chill Factor 602g

Bulls: Meyer 734, Traveler 6807, Draft Pick, Heat Wave, Full Flush, Cunia, Sonny, Trump, Irish Whiskey, Wyoming Wind, Carney Man

Steers: Haymes's last Fort Worth champ, Beville's Fort Worth champ, Brown Sisters KC champ, Wilcox's KC Champ, Copus's reserve at Fort Worth(the shorthorn)

Offline Zach

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2007, 06:44:09 PM »
good question, bulls: 734, cunia, WMW and H seeker, FR magic, Sonny(short.)  You could clone a million bulls for everyones opinion  ;D
The livestock (show) industry is a tough one- if you've never had anything worth a damn you might as well go on the internet and rundown everybody you can.

Offline Doc

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2007, 07:05:57 PM »
 shorthorn cows- Casino 100, Rose T90, Margie 924, Augusta Pride 3127& 6127, Cumberland 410, I could go on for a few more  (clapping)
                 
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enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Cowboy

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 12:03:56 AM »
 (lol) Just for the hell of it, I think I would clone myself -- that way, when I get too old to further antogonize all you goos folks, my REPLACEMENT would be well on his way to taking over for me!!! hehehehe (clapping) (clapping)

I just coulnd't resit -- seeing how I have met hundreds of really GOOD people I love to pick on over the years, and for SURE -- almost as many people I would love to make misserable as long as possible!!!!

As Lee and Tiffany from the hunting show would say --

"" Life is good -- Life is FINE "" hehehe

See ya -- and yes -- I most deffinately AM still alive -- just as mean as ever too I might add!!!

Terry
 :o
Cows are family too -- we treat em like they are !!

Offline knabe

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2007, 09:02:51 AM »
moderate framed, high growth rate maine anjou bulls whose performance records showed a propensity to marble on grass at an early age, relatively speaking who showed good flex in their pasterns, good hock set, smaller head.  these were probably ignored during the import of maines in the late 60's, early 70's.  the place i would look would have been someone with larger pastures, as the place they come from has decent grass with more than adequate rainfall, requiring less foot travel.  a bull with a name, that would be easy, vainqueur.  cows, smithbuilt's full sister. 

Offline ELBEE

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2007, 09:23:45 AM »
Some great scientific minds have developed, and made huge strides in the last ? years. But, in my small mind the truly visionary, seekers, searchers, revolutionary's; and all those other superlatives that fit, are the ones that will bring us the future, from they're back pasture. And y'all can probably put names and faces to them.
"My father and grandfather were great men among men, but first and foremost, men of God. I ask that God give me the power of the Holy Spirit through His Son Jesus Christ to be like them."  Lee Bigham

Offline Show Heifer

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2007, 10:59:39 AM »
My first thought, is why would you want to clone an old animal?  MY thinking if you are BUILDING a herd, and are doing your selections right, shouldn't the next generation ALWAYS be better than the two animals it took to make it? Granted their are exceptions (heavens I hope so...I just flushed a cow to 734!!!) but 95% of the time it SHOULD be true.

That being said....I would clone my little red cow. Breeds with semen thrown at her, weans off 60-70% of her body weight, is easy keeping, easy handling. I love that cow. Yes, I should flush her. (clapping)

I  agree with Cookie, she was truely a great cow.

But as far as bulls go....I guess nothing comes to mind....
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Offline justintime

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2007, 11:24:48 AM »
Right on Elbee!   You are exactly right.  As I have said on here before, I believe there are cattle breeders and cattle multipliers. Both groups are needed in a successful cattle industry. Cattle breeders are constantly looking for the next piece of the puzzle, and always looking for new genetics to add to their breeding program, that will continue to move the quality of their program in the direction they want it to go. This direction will change from time to time, but cattle breeders seldom follow anyone, unless they are convinced that it will advance their breeding program. True cattle breeders hav a rwal concern for the bettermeant of a breed and the cattle industry as a whole. Of course they are concerned about their own success, however, they consider more than the dollars they can generate when making a breeding choice.
 Cattle multipliers, on the other hand are the majority, by a large margin. Their breeding program is less precise, and they oftentimes chase the fads and fashions of the day. Cattle multipliers will oftentimes continue to stack popular bloodlines in a pedigree, rather than seek for an outcross or try something new. Cattle multipliers are more focused on one part of the industry ( such as the production of show steer and heifers ) than the entire industry. Cattle multipliers are an essential part of any breed and of the cattle industry as a whole.
As for what animal I would like to flush, I can think of several that could be candidates. I really question if cloning is required to advance any part of the cattle industry. Any bull that is worth considering, should have produced sons that arebetter breeding pieces, than themselves. Any female worth considering, should have produced offspring that are better breeding pieces, than herself. If improvement is a consideration for cloning, we all should be seeking for the sons and daughters of these cattle that can take us to the next level, rather than having to clone any animal.  There is a word that I have not heard used in the cattle industry for many years. This work is " Prepotent" A prepotent sire was a sire that produced sons and daughters better than either parent. Don't hear this anyone. I often wonder why?
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Offline knabe

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2007, 12:25:41 PM »

prepotency , it is extremely diffcult from a statistical perspective to have a prepotent individual that is not linebred or is a statistical recombination freak odds defier by chance.  leo, a quarter horse comes to mind.

based on most programs i've seen, most people don't line breed long enough or cull enough for these indivuduals to surface.  for me, a prepotent individual can include individuals who can be as good as their parents, but improve a trait of interest.  it's funny someone mentioned a twisted front leg on a cow on another thread.  quarter horses were famous for this.  for me, i would gladly take a sire who could maintain every other trait, but improve that one trait and i would consider them prepotent.  some leg problems in horses can be traced to a problem higher up and an animal gets used to eating with one leg forward, and when they grow, it gets accentuated.  if you line breed this or cross to another animal with a similar problem, suddenly you can get into trouble.  i think i mentioned before, anxiety the 4th i thinkhad one leg shorter than the other and he had a shoe put on one foot to even him out.  can't remember if it was anxiety or not.

here's an interesting link

http://books.google.com/books?id=k1UaAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA485&lpg=PA485&dq=anxiety+4th+hereford&source=web&ots=J5WHJj7Zzr&sig=6L2miKseNYN49Z9PN8nV2aNYGQg#PPA486,M1

there are a couple of maine breeders doing this, but are bitten by PHA, and hopefully they will continue the lines, sans PHA.  there probably are not enough individuals from these lines, to pick a few directions that are promising besides the obvious show lines.

Offline Jason

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2007, 05:05:31 PM »
I would clone myself, and make my clone work all the time, while I relax ;).  Unfortunately it would probably end up like the movie mutliplicity.
"Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up." --- Thomas Edison in 1877

Offline DL

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2007, 09:23:16 PM »
Right on Elbee!   You are exactly right.  As I have said on here before, I believe there are cattle breeders and cattle multipliers. Both groups are needed in a successful cattle industry. Cattle breeders are constantly looking for the next piece of the puzzle, and always looking for new genetics to add to their breeding program, that will continue to move the quality of their program in the direction they want it to go. This direction will change from time to time, but cattle breeders seldom follow anyone, unless they are convinced that it will advance their breeding program. True cattle breeders hav a rwal concern for the bettermeant of a breed and the cattle industry as a whole. Of course they are concerned about their own success, however, they consider more than the dollars they can generate when making a breeding choice.
 Cattle multipliers, on the other hand are the majority, by a large margin. Their breeding program is less precise, and they oftentimes chase the fads and fashions of the day. Cattle multipliers will oftentimes continue to stack popular bloodlines in a pedigree, rather than seek for an outcross or try something new. Cattle multipliers are more focused on one part of the industry ( such as the production of show steer and heifers ) than the entire industry. Cattle multipliers are an essential part of any breed and of the cattle industry as a whole.
As for what animal I would like to flush, I can think of several that could be candidates. I really question if cloning is required to advance any part of the cattle industry. Any bull that is worth considering, should have produced sons that arebetter breeding pieces, than themselves. Any female worth considering, should have produced offspring that are better breeding pieces, than herself. If improvement is a consideration for cloning, we all should be seeking for the sons and daughters of these cattle that can take us to the next level, rather than having to clone any animal.  There is a word that I have not heard used in the cattle industry for many years. This work is " Prepotent" A prepotent sire was a sire that produced sons and daughters better than either parent. Don't hear this anyone. I often wonder why?

This might get me membership into the lunatic fringe but here goes.

JIT - I agree with you but have another view to add to why I wouldn't clone something (perhaps Cowboy, but maybe not - read on) - the science behind cloning and other cell manipulation is interesting from the standpoint of what we can do and what we have learned, but what you get when you clone is basically a genetically identical (chromosomal DNA) individual - but what you don't get is the soul, the substance, the being, the essence, the individuality of the creature - anybody who has spent any time with cattle(or almost any other species) knows that they have personalities, they are different from their neighbors, and so if you clone Gertrude it would look like Gertrude but wouldn't be Gertrude - and that to me is pretty scary
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Offline gatorbait

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2007, 12:07:25 PM »


JIT - I agree with you but have another view to add to why I wouldn't clone something (perhaps Cowboy, but maybe not - read on) - the science behind cloning and other cell manipulation is interesting from the standpoint of what we can do and what we have learned, but what you get when you clone is basically a genetically identical (chromosomal DNA) individual - but what you don't get is the soul, the substance, the being, the essence, the individuality of the creature - anybody who has spent any time with cattle(or almost any other species) knows that they have personalities, they are different from their neighbors, and so if you clone Gertrude it would look like Gertrude but wouldn't be Gertrude - and that to me is pretty scary[/color][/b]
[/quote]

Thats not scary it just shows the influence environment has on development. Its no different than having a identical twin although genetically speaking they are identical it is quit obvious they are individuals. I hope everyone here understands that although it seems to escape many in the general populace thanks in large part to the scfi horror genre.

On a more interesting note I wonder what effect the cell donor makes on the clone. As I understand the process dna from a one cell embryo is removed and replaced with the dna of the animal to be cloned. Leaving the animal with mitochondrial dna from the cell donor. Thats probable pretty insignificant but until more research is done I would  want to use an embryos from the female being cloned. On the male side this is mute of course because mitochondrial dna is passed down the female lineage.

my list of animals to clone 734 wmw hs from a club calf perspective of course 
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Offline knabe

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2007, 12:48:48 PM »
no such thing as mute.

supposedly some male mitochondria are "injected" into the egg during fertilization but are quickly chewn to bits as foreign bodies

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sXrkIrXQkFQJ:www.sciencenews.org/pages/pdfs/data/2000/157-01/15701-06.pdf+sperm+mitochondria+egg&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a

i haven't seen a process in biology that is absolute yet, and if there is a selective advantage, it will be retained.  click a few of the links

this creates a problem in deciding law as gray lines are thin to wide in biology, rather than black and white.  nevertheless, biology discriminates as choices are reproducible within a certain probability.

ponzi schemes such as our social security system which used to be based on 42 workers for every recipient now has less than 5 workers for every recipient, which is the major reason we need immigrants because we killed at least 50 million taxpayers through choice since 1973 legallaly alone.  i would say the gray line on social security is about to fail.  it was saved for a few years by taking away health care for retired veterans in a landmark court case which said veterans were guaranteed only verbally, rather than written.  who's next?  you can bet it will be a law abiding citizen.

Offline JbarL

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2007, 04:43:31 PM »
Right on Elbee!   You are exactly right.  As I have said on here before, I believe there are cattle breeders and cattle multipliers. Both groups are needed in a successful cattle industry. Cattle breeders are constantly looking for the next piece of the puzzle, and always looking for new genetics to add to their breeding program, that will continue to move the quality of their program in the direction they want it to go. This direction will change from time to time, but cattle breeders seldom follow anyone, unless they are convinced that it will advance their breeding program. True cattle breeders hav a rwal concern for the bettermeant of a breed and the cattle industry as a whole. Of course they are concerned about their own success, however, they consider more than the dollars they can generate when making a breeding choice.
 Cattle multipliers, on the other hand are the majority, by a large margin. Their breeding program is less precise, and they oftentimes chase the fads and fashions of the day. Cattle multipliers will oftentimes continue to stack popular bloodlines in a pedigree, rather than seek for an outcross or try something new. Cattle multipliers are more focused on one part of the industry ( such as the production of show steer and heifers ) than the entire industry. Cattle multipliers are an essential part of any breed and of the cattle industry as a whole.
As for what animal I would like to flush, I can think of several that could be candidates. I really question if cloning is required to advance any part of the cattle industry. Any bull that is worth considering, should have produced sons that arebetter breeding pieces, than themselves. Any female worth considering, should have produced offspring that are better breeding pieces, than herself. If improvement is a consideration for cloning, we all should be seeking for the sons and daughters of these cattle that can take us to the next level, rather than having to clone any animal.  There is a word that I have not heard used in the cattle industry for many years. This work is " Prepotent" A prepotent sire was a sire that produced sons and daughters better than either parent. Don't hear this anyone. I often wonder why?

This might get me membership into the lunatic fringe but here goes.

JIT - I agree with you but have another view to add to why I wouldn't clone something (perhaps Cowboy, but maybe not - read on) - the science behind cloning and other cell manipulation is interesting from the standpoint of what we can do and what we have learned, but what you get when you clone is basically a genetically identical (chromosomal DNA) individual - but what you don't get is the soul, the substance, the being, the essence, the individuality of the creature - anybody who has spent any time with cattle(or almost any other species) knows that they have personalities, they are different from their neighbors, and so if you clone Gertrude it would look like Gertrude but wouldn't be Gertrude - and that to me is pretty scary

perfect analogy dl....a clone of einstien would "look" like albert.....even have the gentic "ability" to "think out of the box like einstein, but personality and thought application  wise may miss the boat completely and would be perfectently content working @ the newpaper setting print,.......its good to see that when it comes to the perfect cow....all seem to agree that the commercial qualities are what comes to the front...heart and lungs......fuzz optional....jbarl

Offline aj

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Re: Who would you clone?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2007, 08:57:44 PM »
I would like to clone some of the old shorthorns from say the 1940's , before the baby beef deal in the 60's? Same for the angus and herfords. These cattle didn't get anything but salt for the most part. Survival of the fittest, no mineral or supplementation or whatever.They might not be any good but it would be great to at least have their germ plasm to study. There was probably some ole bull somewhere that was perfect in all the dna test's including effiecency and everything that was undiscovered and never utilized and steered and sold in a salebarn for.50 cents a pound.
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