Winalot

librarian · Jan 30, 2015

It was my understanding that 80C typed Native in the MARC tests.

Really it was the older Winalot cattle that interested me, like Winalot Captain 64N. His mgs seems to be a big blank.
Four Point Dorothy, paternal grand dam, is double bred Four Point Galaxy, from TPS Coronet Galaxy, which goes to Calrossie Constellation... Constellation maybe a culprit in Clipper King?
Except for that question mark, Dorothy has a neat pedigree. xC593353.
Whatever...27C is clean, hooray.

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR · Jan 30, 2015

Okotoks said:
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:

Kannon was also available to Brazil, unfortunatelly the shipment costs made it impossible.
Mochican son, Gus 80C, made a great job in Brazil. Specially when used on Tribune, Enticer, Yates daughters.
Heard that Gus was part Maine at one side,a s well as Winalot Big Mac. Maybe this was the (+) point on the mating.

Click to expand...

I don't think that is true! I'd be curious to know who is spreading that rumour.

Well, we hear lots of things about lots of bulls.
Until DNA prove that he is positive for infusions, will believe on their pedigree, as well as Big Mac.
But, recently Enticer come to light! So....rumors some times can to be fine.
By the way, was only a comment!

Okotoks · Jan 30, 2015

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:
Okotoks said:

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:

Kannon was also available to Brazil, unfortunatelly the shipment costs made it impossible.
Mochican son, Gus 80C, made a great job in Brazil. Specially when used on Tribune, Enticer, Yates daughters.
Heard that Gus was part Maine at one side,a s well as Winalot Big Mac. Maybe this was the (+) point on the mating.

Click to expand...

I don't think that is true! I'd be curious to know who is spreading that rumour.

Click to expand...

Well, we hear lots of things about lots of bulls.
Until DNA prove that he is positive for infusions, will believe on their pedigree, as well as Big Mac.
But, recently Enticer come to light! So....rumors some times can to be fine.
By the way, was only a comment!

As far as I know 80C has the correct pedigree as I am friends with both his sire's breeders and with 80C's breeders. When you speculate online about the honesty of a pedigree without any facts it is more than just a comment. Would you like it if someone speculated about the accuracy of your pedigrees on a social forum?

RyanChandler · Jan 30, 2015

Depends if the speculation is substantiated by, in this example, a non british phenotype as is the case with the American Eagle bull. Anyone know why he's asterisk free?

oakview · Jan 30, 2015

I believe after so many generations, the * falls off. Interesting to see that Creekland Lancer x, mentioned in another thread, appears in American Eagle's pedigree. Did you mention Calrossie Constellation as a possible culprit in Clipper King of Bapton x in reference to TH? Constellation appeared in the pedigree of countless North American Shorthorns of the 60's. So far, Clipper King of Bapton x, through his son Clipper King of USA x, is the only one that I know of associated with TH. It was theorized on this site earlier that the TH possibly came from the Galloway herd at the farm of Clipper King's origin. All of this would certainly be conjecture at this point and we'll most likely never know for sure.

RyanChandler · Jan 30, 2015

oakview said:
I believe after so many generations, the * falls off. Interesting to see that Creekland Lancer x, mentioned in another thread, appears in American Eagle's pedigree. Did you mention Calrossie Constellation as a possible culprit in Clipper King of Bapton x in reference to TH? Constellation appeared in the pedigree of countless North American Shorthorns of the 60's. So far, Clipper King of Bapton x, through his son Clipper King of USA x, is the only one that I know of associated with TH. It was theorized on this site earlier that the TH possibly came from the Galloway herd at the farm of Clipper King's origin. All of this would certainly be conjecture at this point and we'll most likely never know for sure.

Correct, but I don't think that's the reason for this bull as he has Ayatollah just 5 gens back.

oakview · Jan 30, 2015

ASA rules state that the * is removed when the animal reaches the 127/128 level. I don't know what Ayatollah's status is without looking it up, but it must be high enough that the animal in question reached 127/128.

librarian · Jan 30, 2015

Xbar, I'm not sure what American Eagle has to do with it, except that he reminded me of the Irish bulls from Winalot Rodney.
Also, when I said, "All the females I favored Diamond were put of him.", I was speaking of Diamond Captain Mark, but the edit was bad.
So, sorry to be sloppy.
But since you mention Ayatollah, when I was reading that old thread, The Man Who Discovered Dividend (sounds like The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance), there were some pictures of bulls related to Ayatollah that reminded me a lot of those bulls at Chapelton , but I thought I was just going crazy.
What non English phenotype does the bull you are talking about suggest, and remind me please what bull you refer to.
About Constellation, just a bad guess.
I feel this thread has taken a life of its own, mainly due to my lack of focus, but I am learning a lot and appreciate your tolerance.

librarian · Jan 30, 2015

Hey Xbar, As fate would have it, I was still looking for the name of the bull in that picture that I forgot.I was searching Deerpark Improver images. They get pretty random..
So I come across is this great dark red bull and he turned out to be RB Eagle 148 and the picture was from one of your SP threads.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/rb-eagle-239th/
The is a good discussion there about whether or not he has some Maine in him.
But more encouraging to my old school dual quest were JIT's observations about the pedigree of Eagle 148...
"Looking back at the pedigree of Eagle 148th, I am kinda amazed at the amount of Canadian dual purpose blood that is in his pedigree through his dam. His dam was RB Julie, who was a daughter of Kilshannig Julie, a female I sold in a production sale in the 70s. She was sired by HC Walking Tall, who was a 100% dual purpose bred bull. After selling Walking Tall to the Kilshannig herd, I went back and purchased all his first crop of heifer calves. Her grand sire Ace of Diamonds was also 100% dual purpose , and was a son of Meadowbrook Prince 16th."

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR · Jan 31, 2015

Okotoks said:
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:

Okotoks said:

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:

Kannon was also available to Brazil, unfortunatelly the shipment costs made it impossible.
Mochican son, Gus 80C, made a great job in Brazil. Specially when used on Tribune, Enticer, Yates daughters.
Heard that Gus was part Maine at one side,a s well as Winalot Big Mac. Maybe this was the (+) point on the mating.

Click to expand...

I don't think that is true! I'd be curious to know who is spreading that rumour.

Click to expand...

Well, we hear lots of things about lots of bulls.
Until DNA prove that he is positive for infusions, will believe on their pedigree, as well as Big Mac.
But, recently Enticer come to light! So....rumors some times can to be fine.
By the way, was only a comment!

Click to expand...

As far as I know 80C has the correct pedigree as I am friends with both his sire's breeders and with 80C's breeders. When you speculate online about the honesty of a pedigree without any facts it is more than just a comment. Would you like it if someone speculated about the accuracy of your pedigrees on a social forum?

This is a chat to change info.
Based on your comments, none bull or cow of any breed will to be mentioned here. Or all mentioned bulls here in this site has proven that they are what they are?
Many bulls were mentioned here as fakes pedigree and not remember seeing anyone prove it in a scientific way. As well regarding genetic diseases origin as TH, DS or PH.....all based on rumors regarding pedigrees links, but none pure and scientific proved.
Sorry for 80C comment, however I could see that was unique bull mentioned on this site that brought this kind of feeling....Interesting!!!

jaimiediamond · Jan 31, 2015

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:
Okotoks said:

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:

Okotoks said:

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:

Kannon was also available to Brazil, unfortunatelly the shipment costs made it impossible.
Mochican son, Gus 80C, made a great job in Brazil. Specially when used on Tribune, Enticer, Yates daughters.
Heard that Gus was part Maine at one side,a s well as Winalot Big Mac. Maybe this was the (+) point on the mating.

Click to expand...

I don't think that is true! I'd be curious to know who is spreading that rumour.

Click to expand...

Well, we hear lots of things about lots of bulls.
Until DNA prove that he is positive for infusions, will believe on their pedigree, as well as Big Mac.
But, recently Enticer come to light! So....rumors some times can to be fine.
By the way, was only a comment!

Click to expand...

As far as I know 80C has the correct pedigree as I am friends with both his sire's breeders and with 80C's breeders. When you speculate online about the honesty of a pedigree without any facts it is more than just a comment. Would you like it if someone speculated about the accuracy of your pedigrees on a social forum?

Click to expand...

This is a chat to change info.
Based on your comments, none bull or cow of any breed will to be mentioned here. Or all mentioned bulls here in this site has proven that they are what they are?
Many bulls were mentioned here as fakes pedigree and not remember seeing anyone prove it in a scientific way. As well regarding genetic diseases origin as TH, DS or PH.....all based on rumors regarding pedigrees links, but none pure and scientific proved.
Sorry for 80C comment, however I could see that was unique bull mentioned on this site that brought this kind of feeling....Interesting!!!

I have heard a lot of rumors about a lot of different bulls over time. Most of which I would put money on was started by rumor mongers. You are the first person who has ever mentioned 80C which I have either seen or heard. I see you were unable to mention where you had heard it from? Unfortunately jealous people who want to tear things down often say things without any foundation which is why I will agree with my dad (okotoks) on this one I don't believe anyone should without contacting the breeders and asking questions (OR sending in a DNA sample to be tested if one truly believes the rumor to be true) spread potentially damaging information without proof.

I only am bothering to even comment as I am defending honor and the Morrison family had a very honest program.

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR · Jan 31, 2015

OK. Great that 80C is really what pedigree show.
I'm tired of seeing said honest bulls and then discover that they are fakes .
I have lots of 80C in my pedigrees and was very upset , just like you, with this question that hung in his genealogy.
He made a good job here.
Jealousy in the cattle is strong, as I can see .
Only look for honest pedigrees .
All are honest , pedigrees and people , until proven otherwise.
So from now , caution to all at speak rumors or name bulls!
Also will not extend this unuseful discussion.
Peace for all!

P.S....I never told that Morrison's made faking pedigrees.....I refer to 80C pedigree, never to his breeders....a good read and little patience would help to avoid outbursts unnecessary.

librarian · Jan 31, 2015

Here are remarks from previous SP discussions that support the statement that 80C has no infusion of non-Shorthorn blood. I saw the printout of the animals in the DNA study mentioned in the second post, and 80C was square in the middle of the Native group. I remember because I wrote it down so I could look for him in pedigrees to see how "pure" they were. But every day I drift father from considering "purity" relevant to the development of specialized genotypes for specialized purposes. On the one hand, racial purity seems like a dead end. On the other hand, what is a species other than a pure genotype?
When we look at a herd of gazelle or deer, aren't they all "peas on a pod"?
Is this due to line breeding under the name of natural selection? More likely is that evolution constantly prunes extreme individuals from the edges of phenotypic variation. The average form may change, but probably not by the instant superiority of novel types. Forms change in relation to changes in environment. Such may be the case with infusions of "impure blood" to established breeds.
Man made the first breed when he robbed an animal of its wild relationship to food and reproduction. I begin to see the differentiation of breeds not in terms of their genetic distance from one another, but in terms of degrees of genetic impoverishment.

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/old-horned-shorthorn-bulls-semen/15/
Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 10:14:24 PM »
Quote
Just visited with Bert Moore on a similar issue. If GrousePark wants to keep his native status many of the Irish bulls (improver, leader, etc.) aren't accepted because their pedigrees came over with only one generation and they can't be traced to the coates herd book. As you can imagine this really limits the bulls you can use. Eionmor Mr Gus 85C is native. And it appears that Mr Gus 80C and Mr Gus 30B maybe native also. Dr. Moore is going to research that for me.

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/native-bulls-from-50's-and-60's/
Re: Native - Shorthorn Bulls from 50's and 60's
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2014, 05:20:55 PM »
Quote
I have had some conversations about Native Shorthorns with Roy Lovaas. In fact we actually did some DNA studies comparing Shorthorn, Milking Shorthorn, Native Shorthorn, Irish-influenced Shorthorn, and Lincoln Red.
http://steakgenomics.blogspot.com/2014/08/applying-new-technologies-to.html
The article was originally published in the "Lincoln Letter", but it is no longer online, so I posted a copy on my blog

mark tenenbaum · Feb 1, 2015

Okotoks said:
Winalot Rodney was by a son of Gafa Captain Macbest 6G and out of a Janell's Marvel 2F daughter. Rodney was used in both Canada and the UK. Rollie Bateman sent embryos over to Scotland by him and here is a photo of one of the resulting offspring, LS Duke. Also the link to the article for the sale he sold in.

http://www.meattradenewsdaily.co.uk/news/080612/uk___beef_shorthorns_.aspx

//// I DISTINCTLY remember that red bull you had at Denver:he was the type I really likedbut didnt know anything about the Canadian breeding.-Didnt you have 2-3 altoghether that were very similar-I told Hunsley that they were ahead of the curve compared to the bigger harder doing looking bulls and why didnt they get a little more recognition?-Cagwin was also standing there O0

OH Breeder · Feb 1, 2015

@librarian

I have been looking at different European countries to see what Shorthorns look like. There is an article where some Germans have infused Scottish genetics into their herds as well as Canadian(80 C was mentioned specifically). Thought the attached bull was really interesting. They seem soft made easy feeding types. Deep sized masculine bulls. The other thing was the World Wars forced many of the European countries to breed withing due to what was going on.

Okotoks · Feb 1, 2015

mark tenenbaum said:
Okotoks said:

Winalot Rodney was by a son of Gafa Captain Macbest 6G and out of a Janell's Marvel 2F daughter. Rodney was used in both Canada and the UK. Rollie Bateman sent embryos over to Scotland by him and here is a photo of one of the resulting offspring, LS Duke. Also the link to the article for the sale he sold in.

http://www.meattradenewsdaily.co.uk/news/080612/uk___beef_shorthorns_.aspx

Click to expand...

//// I DISTINCTLY remember that red bull you had at Denver:he was the type I really likedbut didnt know anything about the Canadian breeding.-Didnt you have 2-3 altoghether that were very similar-I told Hunsley that they were ahead of the curve compared to the bigger harder doing looking bulls and why didnt they get a little more recognition?-Cagwin was also standing there O0

We had three half brothers in the pen show in 1998. They got a lot of attention in the yards but were very different to the type winning on the hill. We sold several heifers in our fall sale that fall to people that saw those bulls in Denver.

Here is the pedigree on the Glenisla Yelanna bull. He was bred by John Gibb, Glenisla, Scotland and as you can see has a lot of Australian , North American breeding. The Glenisla Flower cow carried 19% Maine breeding.

MARELLAN SUPER SUPREME (P) 91/04194 (100.00)
MARELLAN VAGABOND (P) 94/04002 (100.00)
MARELLAN ADA 18TH (P) 92/02691 (100.00)
Sire: BELMORE FUEL INJECTED V12 (P) IAWV12 (100.00)
BELMORE WASHINGTON N6 (P) 93/03120 (100.00)
BELMORE FIRST LADY S52 (P) 97/01995 (100.00)
BELMORE BLOSSOM K52 (P) 90/05242 (100.00)
Animal: GLENISLA YEELANNA (P) (UK540307-700366) 523800330
SUTHERLAND TITLEIST ET (P) X US 3839836 (100.00)
SUTHERLAND TITLEIST 269 ET (P) X-3902216 (100.00)
BJB BETTY PROPHET ET (P) X 3821983 (100.00)
Dam: GLENISLA FLOWER L68 (H) (UKAO0213-00168) GJP L68.43 (95.31)
DIAMOND XERXES 8X (P) DAN 8X.36 (100.00)
GLENISLA FLOWER J6 (P) GJP J6.41 (90.62)
GLENISLA FLOWER 4TH (H) GJP B10.35 (81.25)

beebe · Feb 1, 2015

librarian said:
Here are remarks from previous SP discussions that support the statement that 80C has no infusion of non-Shorthorn blood. I saw the printout of the animals in the DNA study mentioned in the second post, and 80C was square in the middle of the Native group. I remember because I wrote it down so I could look for him in pedigrees to see how "pure" they were. But every day I drift father from considering "purity" relevant to the development of specialized genotypes for specialized purposes. On the one hand, racial purity seems like a dead end. On the other hand, what is a species other than a pure genotype?
When we look at a herd of gazelle or deer, aren't they all "peas on a pod"?
Is this due to line breeding under the name of natural selection? More likely is that evolution constantly prunes extreme individuals from the edges of phenotypic variation. The average form may change, but probably not by the instant superiority of novel types. Forms change in relation to changes in environment. Such may be the case with infusions of "impure blood" to established breeds.
Man made the first breed when he robbed an animal of its wild relationship to food and reproduction. I begin to see the differentiation of breeds not in terms of their genetic distance from one another, but in terms of degrees of genetic impoverishment.

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/old-horned-shorthorn-bulls-semen/15/
Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 10:14:24 PM »
Quote
Just visited with Bert Moore on a similar issue. If GrousePark wants to keep his native status many of the Irish bulls (improver, leader, etc.) aren't accepted because their pedigrees came over with only one generation and they can't be traced to the coates herd book. As you can imagine this really limits the bulls you can use. Eionmor Mr Gus 85C is native. And it appears that Mr Gus 80C and Mr Gus 30B maybe native also. Dr. Moore is going to research that for me.

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/native-bulls-from-50's-and-60's/
Re: Native - Shorthorn Bulls from 50's and 60's
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2014, 05:20:55 PM »
Quote
I have had some conversations about Native Shorthorns with Roy Lovaas. In fact we actually did some DNA studies comparing Shorthorn, Milking Shorthorn, Native Shorthorn, Irish-influenced Shorthorn, and Lincoln Red.
http://steakgenomics.blogspot.com/2014/08/applying-new-technologies-to.html
The article was originally published in the "Lincoln Letter", but it is no longer online, so I posted a copy on my blog

If 85c is native, is there any 85c semen left in the world?

librarian · Feb 1, 2015

Thank you for posting the German bull. He is a great example and a new path to explore.
I have been told there are some very fine Galloways in Germany as well, the most authentic type.

It is not likely that they used up the last remaining 85C semen to study it. (although not impossible...)

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR · Feb 1, 2015

librarian said:
Thank you for posting the German bull. He is a great example and a new path to explore.
I have been told there are some very fine Galloways in Germany as well, the most authentic type.

It is not likely that they used up the last remaining 85C semen to study it. (although not impossible...)

The red bull is from UK - Glenisla herd - that was sold to Germany.
I read that German Shorthorn as well as Aberdeen Angus form there show some continental local breeds on they base. Of course not all I believe. Something connect with post Great War herds reconstruction, where Germans used some british livestock to upgrade their stock. Not many info about it, as the german books are only in german, not in english.

OH Breeder · Feb 1, 2015

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:
librarian said:

Thank you for posting the German bull. He is a great example and a new path to explore.
I have been told there are some very fine Galloways in Germany as well, the most authentic type.

It is not likely that they used up the last remaining 85C semen to study it. (although not impossible...)

Click to expand...

The red bull is from UK - Glenisla herd - that was sold to Germany.
I read that German Shorthorn as well as Aberdeen Angus form there show some continental local breeds on they base. Of course not all I believe. Something connect with post Great War herds reconstruction, where Germans used some british livestock to upgrade their stock. Not many info about it, as the german books are only in german, not in english.

My point being....the Germans are infusing those "type" and kind of bulls into their genetics. His head structure depth of body easy feeding look is something I think at times we are missing in the American herds. I like what they are doing if those are the sires they are using. Some of the European countries seem to track breed charateristics matings etc closer than we do.
These two bulls semen to be on paper a mixture of Scottish and German breeding.

Winalot

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