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Offline OH Breeder

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2009, 10:00:17 AM »
I have read several articles trying to understand Roan expression. Many times you have a roan but don't know it. Some shorthorns are mistake for red and white when in all actuality they are roans. Mixing of the red and white hairs is what creates the roan. When a pure white bull or cow is mated to a pure black bull or cow a blue roan may be created.

Below is the easiest explanation I have found to date because I am not that bright. Knabe is better at cell biology than I am.

Breeds of cattle known for roans are the Belgian Blue and Shorthorn. Among the former, coat color may be solid black, solid white, or blue roan; the latter may be solid red, solid white, or red roan. Belgian Blues also typically exhibit spotting patterns, which are genetically separate from roan. As a result, most roan cows exhibit blotches of clearly colored and clearly white hair, with roan patches.Some "cryptic" roan cattle appear solid, but upon close inspection reveal a small roan patch.Roan cattle cannot "breed true" but breeding white cattle to a solid mate will always yield a roan calf. The white color typical of Charolais and White Park breeds is not related to roan.

Roan in Shorthorns and Belgian Blues is controlled by the mast cell growth factor (MGF) gene, also called the steel locus, on bovine chromosome 5. Part of the KIT ligand (=stem cells), this region is involved in many cell differentiation processes. Mast cell growth factor promotes pigment production by pigment cells [26], and without it, skin and hair cells lack pigment. With two functional MGF genes (homozygous dominant), cattle are fully-pigmented; without any functional MGF genes (homozygous recessive), they are white. MGF-controlled roan occurs when cattle possess one functional and one non-functional MGF gene (heterozygous), resulting in a roughly even mixture of white regions and colored regions.
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Offline MYT Farms

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2009, 10:48:15 AM »
Wow, that's all very helpful! Thanks to all!
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Offline LoVeShOrThOrNs

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2009, 07:55:20 PM »
Our pure white shorthorn bull Tommy Boy made some pretty awesome blue calves this past year.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 07:56:46 PM by LoVeShOrThOrNs »

Offline Doc

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2009, 09:08:56 PM »
 You can't ever tell. I bred a blue roan Black Impact dtr to my red neck roan Improvers Stride bull & got a solid red hfr with a little white on the belly.
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Offline MYT Farms

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2009, 09:25:38 PM »
You can't ever tell. I bred a blue roan Black Impact dtr to my red neck roan Improvers Stride bull & got a solid red hfr with a little white on the belly.

Well, I guess not! I reckon I'll stick with my homo black cattle and those I show might get a little chrome. Of course, a good cow is never a bad color.  ;)
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Offline andy

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2009, 09:49:14 PM »
Would love to post pictures of some blue calves but can't figure out how to do it.  Anybody care to help a computer idiot out????  Pictures are stuck in my computer and I need somebody to tell me precisely how to get them posted.

Offline MYT Farms

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2009, 09:56:06 PM »
Would love to post pictures of some blue calves but can't figure out how to do it.  Anybody care to help a computer idiot out????  Pictures are stuck in my computer and I need somebody to tell me precisely how to get them posted.

Sure, send 'em on to me if you can! If not, here's how. Go to post a reply and you will see a white arrow next to a block of blue text called "Additional Options...". Click on that. Then, hit "Browse Files". Look through your computer files until you see the pics you want. Click on the pic and its title will show up where the "browse" button was. To add more than 1 pic to a post, click on "(more attachments)" and choose as many as you need.
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Offline andy

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2009, 10:11:43 PM »
Thanks MVT Farms.  I just know enough about computers to be dangerous.  This heifer is out of a homo black Simmental bull I used.   On Shorthorn cows, he threw about 50% blue calves.  Used on roan cows, I'd get good blues pretty well every time.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 09:31:35 PM by andy »

Offline andy

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2009, 10:15:34 PM »
Whoops.  See if this picture makes more sense.

Offline MYT Farms

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2009, 11:28:56 PM »
OK, the brown boxes didn't make sense :D , but the blue heifer on a halter did. VERY nice! Really cool color pattern too.  (welcome)
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Offline box6rranch

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2009, 09:16:32 AM »
Had our first calf yesterday from the white pb shorthorn bull and the pb angus cow. It's a bull. White belly roan butt and tail. Slightly roan all over :O)
8 more to go!

Offline MYT Farms

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2009, 10:06:43 AM »
Had our first calf yesterday from the white pb shorthorn bull and the pb angus cow. It's a bull. White belly roan butt and tail. Slightly roan all over :O)
8 more to go!

That's awesome! It'd be cool to use a white bull on al our cows to get an entire set of roan calves. Now THAT would look cool! But anyway, glad calving is underway, and I hope all goes well. I've got one at home right now. She looks like she might pop, but her calf isn't due till the 15th or 20th of this month.
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Offline TJ

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2009, 10:16:42 AM »
Whoops.  See if this picture makes more sense.

To delete a pic, click "modify" above the post & uncheck the picture.   ;)
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Offline andy

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2009, 09:33:02 PM »
Thanks TJ.  I appreciate the advice on how to manouver through the site.

Offline randiliana

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Re: Would A blue bull on black calves make a blue calf?
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2009, 05:48:14 PM »
Genetics are a bit of a hobby of mine, so maybe I can help explain the roan gene. I have a blog that is pretty informative (I think) about color genetics in general too. This is a bit long, but hopefully it is understandable.

First off, you have to understand that there are 3 base coat colors, Black which is dominant, Wild type which is recessive to black, and Red which is recessive to both Black and Wild. All other colors are MODIFIERS. No matter what color the animal is (from white to grey to roan to tan to spotted) his base coat will ALWAYS be Black, Wild or Red.

The roan gene is incompletely dominant which means that a homozygous animal will present different traits than a heterozygous animal. This happens MOST of the time, but there are other modifier genes which affect the shade of roan so it is possible to have a hetero animal look the same as a homo animal.

A homo roan (RR)will be white
A hetero roan(Rr) will range in shade from almost solid colored to almost white, in some cases they may look white.
And a homo solid colored (rr) will of course be solid colored with no roaning.

Now, if you take a Roan animal (Rr) and breed it to a solid colored animal (rr)

You have a 50% chance of having a roan (Rr)
and a 50% chance of having a solid(rr)

If you take a Roan (Rr) animal and breed it Roan(Rr)
you have a 25% chance of gettig a white (RR)
50% chance of a roan (Rr)
25% chance of a solid (rr)

If you take a roan (Rr) animal and breed it white(RR)
50% chance of white (RR)
50% chance of roan (Rr)

If you take white (RR) and breed it solid (rr)
100% chance of roan.

Now, to get a blue roan instead of a red roan, you have to understand how the Black/Red genes work.
Black is dominant
Red is recessive

If you have homo black (EE) and breed it hetero black (Ee) (carrying red gene)
50% chance of homo black (EE)
50% chance of hetero black (Ee)

Breed a homo black (EE) to a red (ee)
100% chance of hetero black (ee)

Breed a homo black (EE) to homo black
100% chance of homo black (EE)

Breed Hetero black(Ee) to red (ee)
50% chance of hetero black (Ee)
50% chance of red (ee)

Breed hetero black(Ee) to hetero black(Ee)
25% chance of homo black (EE)
50% chance of hetero black (Ee)
25% chance of red (ee)

my blog http://easygenes.blogspot.com

 

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