XBAR's Nightmare

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justintime

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To be honest, I am pleased to see a Composite herd book being established. It is a way to document these cattle which has not been available before. Whether you like composites or not, they are a  factor in our industry that is not going to go away anytime soon. I have slowly changed my mind over the years in regards to using composite bulls. I sold a bull to a large outfit that had been using good numbers of composite bulls in their herd. Quite frankly, I left this ranch a bit amazed at the great set of calves and replacement heifers I had just seen. I am not convinced that using composites for long periods of time will not result in poorer results but used in the right manner, I think they will continue to have a place.
 

Okotoks

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In a way this is a new competitor for the bull market which is alreay fairly sturated so could end up being a nightmare for a lot of bull producers. I know there are some phenominal CROSSBRED CATTLE out there and the good ones bred to the good ones will still give you good ones. I still think you will find a lot of inconsistancy and if you keep crossing them up you will lose the hybrid vigor advantage. Commercial producers should obviously make use of hybrid vigor but I think they will get the most success using 2 and 3 way crosses using purebred bulls to help maintain consitency. This looks more like a family tree type recording system than a registry to me. Does anyone know how many animals are recorded in this system each year? Across breeds wouldn't you require some fairly high numbers to get any sort of accuracy?
 

Duncraggan

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The website made some interesting reading and I believe that as long as you are making use of the hybrid vigour as they point out on the website, you will get some financial benefit.

The composite crossing percentages used as an illustration don't show 50% Unknown breeding X 50% Unknown breeding gives a 20% improvement on their respective parents traits.  They clearly show respective pure breeds being crossed to achieve optimal results.

The objective of all us Shorthorn breeders is to make sure we are one of the sought-after foundation breeds!
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Keep records of composites is OK and will to be useful to avoid bulls in line.
The problem is that, depending of mating and cross used, the population will tend to be like pure breed.
Also how select animals data if heterosis is working?
On my final university degree I worked on a composite program here in southern Brazil, a program managed by Leachman. On starts point they select for red and poll bulls but with time they start to loose potential and marked white bulls and horned ones appear to be used to keep the bulls "functional". Also so many breeds were used and a standard - red and polled - was not got.
A good example is Beefmaster but they are a breed now, so the philosophy was lost in initial matings.
For me you make a well structured cross program - rotational or cris cross - will give you more advantages than miraculous composite programs!
 

justintime

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I think all breeds started as a composite of some sort. In old established breeds like the British breeds, this composite breeding is hundreds of years back in history. More recent breeds like Beefmaster, Santa Gertrudis, Shaver Beef Blends, Hays Converters, or Speckle Park, the composite breeding is much closer.
 

angusfarming

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Mar 11, 2013
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I get that this is a steer page thus the name... But isn't a crossbreed herd book what Chi's have been doing for years?... 6.25% isn't exactly what i call a Chi...

http://www.acaregistry.org/detail.aspx?reg=334048

Monopoly's ^

I'm an Angus guy clearly but he has got more percentage in the other area than chi. We could do this for several well known bulls.

Thank goodness AAA is trying to keep things in the herd book as the should be or at least not allowing for things like the 6.25% deal
 

obie105

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angusfarming said:
I get that this is a steer page thus the name... But isn't a crossbreed herd book what Chi's have been doing for years?... 6.25% isn't exactly what i call a Chi...

http://www.acaregistry.org/detail.aspx?reg=334048

Monopoly's ^

I'm an Angus guy clearly but he has got more percentage in the other area than chi. We could do this for several well known bulls.

Thank goodness AAA is trying to keep things in the herd book as the should be or at least not allowing for things like the 6.25% deal

Agree!! Chi's are a joke that's a crossbreed however you look at it. We have Herefords and I am glad they are even going further in blood testing and DNA.
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Rio Grande - RS - Brazil
obie105 said:
angusfarming said:
I get that this is a steer page thus the name... But isn't a crossbreed herd book what Chi's have been doing for years?... 6.25% isn't exactly what i call a Chi...

http://www.acaregistry.org/detail.aspx?reg=334048

Monopoly's ^

I'm an Angus guy clearly but he has got more percentage in the other area than chi. We could do this for several well known bulls.

Thank goodness AAA is trying to keep things in the herd book as the should be or at least not allowing for things like the 6.25% deal

Agree!! Chi's are a joke that's a crossbreed however you look at it. We have Herefords and I am glad they are even going further in blood testing and DNA.


What kind DNA test is make on Herefords...only paternity or another deep DNA test?
 

angusfarming

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I don't mean to knock Chi's to any of you that breed them its just the best example in my opinion. These same things could be said for lots of Associations. Maines, Shorthorns are in the same boat with their Shorthorn Plus and Maintainer programs. Like I said not meaning to knock one breed just wanted to use a good example everyone could relate to.
 

obie105

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As of this year all herd sires have to have DNA on file to register calves out of them. It's the first step to try to keep the Hereford look a likes out. They are also pulling hair at the state level and up for those shows that require papers. Not saying its not fool proof but its a start.
 

RyanChandler

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To compare the recording of mongrels to the systematic breeding and creation of stabilized composites like Santa Gertrudis and Beefmaster is a joke.

I agree with everything Okotoks is saying.
 

justintime

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-XBAR- said:
To compare the recording of mongrels to the systematic breeding and creation of stabilized composites like Santa Gertrudis and Beefmaster is a joke.

I agree with everything Okotoks is saying.


I also agree with what okotoks is saying. I'm just saying that having a registry where some documentation of pedigree is reported must be better than having nothing at all. For the past two decades, there have been some major players in Western Canada selling their own hybrid bulls... and selling them for very good dollars. This isn't anything new. The Leachman program in Montana was promoting several hybrid crosses, almost 30 years ago. All of these programs developed their own registry system because they realized the importance of documenting performance.
I totally agree that over time the effects of hybrid vigor will be weakened or lost if these crossbred bulls are used for many years. Last fall I saw a set of calves in a herd of over 500 cows that were sired by SimmentalX Angus bulls and out of mainly HerefordX Angus cows. They were an amazing set of calves with excellent consistency in quality. These calves were all destined to go to a feedlot at weaning and be fed to slaughter.

I was not referring to the recording of mongels in my comments. I was commenting that some pretty good breeds have been developed from planned crossing followed by several years of selection.
 

twistedhshowstock

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Nacogdoches, TX
I think a lot of these composites started out a lot like the breeds justintime mentioned, so to call them mongrols is to call those breeds mongrols as well.  Yes the breeding was more systematic, but a lot of it also came about as a "hey! that one did really good, lets see if we can recreate it with some consistancy and clean up the defects" kind of moment.  Thats what led to keeping records and led to a breed being established.  I have no problem with a composite registry.  I also have no problem with all the percentage registries.  I do think the percentage registries have gotten out of hand.  I think percentage registries were a good way to document how a specific breed works in a cross situation, but it turned into just a way to get papers on something so it can show in a breed show.  I think the biggest problem are breed registries that are so full of purebreds that have none of the characteristics of that breed.
 

sizzler14

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Jan 17, 2012
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obie105 said:
angusfarming said:
I get that this is a steer page thus the name... But isn't a crossbreed herd book what Chi's have been doing for years?... 6.25% isn't exactly what i call a Chi...

http://www.acaregistry.org/detail.aspx?reg=334048

Monopoly's ^

I'm an Angus guy clearly but he has got more percentage in the other area than chi. We could do this for several well known bulls.

Thank goodness AAA is trying to keep things in the herd book as the should be or at least not allowing for things like the 6.25% deal

Agree!! Chi's are a joke that's a crossbreed however you look at it. We have Herefords and I am glad they are even going further in blood testing and DNA.
I have a dog at my house. Shes half border collie and half Heeler. Couldnt get any papers on her, So I just said screw it and registered her CHI  <beer>
 

Mill Iron A

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Jul 12, 2011
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516
I think this is a wonderful resource. Commercial cattleman should be flocking to this association to manage their data.  Think about how much mor a commercial cattleman would know about the performance of his cattle if they all had data and epds.  this doesnt have to be just for producing composite bulls, think about selling your commercial heifers with epds! Tjere is a chart on the website on the heterosis you can gain, one thing I would like to mention is people who only want you to use straightbred cattle for commercial purposes always say "eventually you run out of hybrid vigor" with like bred composites you probably can but a disciplined rotation with three breeds being the best you will not lose it as long as you are not line breeding the bull.  As far as consistency goes you can get a lot further by breeding similar phenotypes acrooss breeds and mating tje cow to fix her problems than just shotgunning one bull.
 

Mill Iron A

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Jul 12, 2011
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In my 3 breed rotation I was talking about using pb bulls from each breed and one more thing, other than hiearchy and elitism the goals for production are the same and whatever breed or breed combination that does it for you is the best system for you.
 
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