Quantcast PHA calf video

Sponsors



Author Topic: PHA calf video  (Read 98882 times)

Offline garybob

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
  • Karma 72
  • Cease with Cranial-rectal Infusion!
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2008, 10:34:37 AM »
I just want to make sure everyone understands that you are not going to get a TH or PHA calf unless you breed 2 carriers. You will have a 50% chance of a carrier if you use a non carrier to a carrier. I appreciate the video (even if I can't watch it) but I just want to make sure we've got our mables in the same bag!
Don't stop using Maines, Shorthorns or crosses because of the defect. Do your homework, talk to breeders & be aware!


Red
Or, simply stay away from Carriers, PERIOD. Quit using them. Dr. Beever created the test to ID carrier cattle, so they may be eliminated from a breeding population. This type of attitude ( which mirrors the comfort to complacency transition), has resulted in MORE carriers being created, since a "dirty" cow can be mated to a "clean" bull, with no heartbreak.

Just don't think folks understand.

GB

Offline Olson Family Shorthorns

  • Moderator
  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 4465
  • Karma 139
  • SULL Traveling Ruby ET
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2008, 10:44:03 AM »
I just want to make sure everyone understands that you are not going to get a TH or PHA calf unless you breed 2 carriers. You will have a 50% chance of a carrier if you use a non carrier to a carrier. I appreciate the video (even if I can't watch it) but I just want to make sure we've got our mables in the same bag!
Don't stop using Maines, Shorthorns or crosses because of the defect. Do your homework, talk to breeders & be aware!


Red
Or, simply stay away from Carriers, PERIOD. Quit using them. Dr. Beever created the test to ID carrier cattle, so they may be eliminated from a breeding population. This type of attitude ( which mirrors the comfort to complacency transition), has resulted in MORE carriers being created, since a "dirty" cow can be mated to a "clean" bull, with no heartbreak.

Just don't think folks understand.

GB

GB, I have a question...Won't the people that are breeding carrier cattle only hurt themselves if everyone else is aware of the situation? If these breeders of carrier cattle go and try to sell some carrier heifers, the "smart" people will stay away from them, and then the breeder will be stuck with the calves, or ship them to be eaten.  I don't think that people that breed the carriers are going to affect you or I directly..this is a problem that will end itself.  Let one of those arrogant people go ahead and breed two carriers together...if they get a PHA or TH calf, that will be the last time that they will try that little experiment.  That is, unless they are complete dullards, in which case, they are lost to us forever anyway.


Please understand that my hypothetical world here is IDEAL.  I know that it is not this simple, but it should be.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 10:46:14 AM by shortyjock89 »
Shorthorn cattle and genetic opportunities available at all times. (515) 520 1972

Offline garybob

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
  • Karma 72
  • Cease with Cranial-rectal Infusion!
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2008, 10:57:07 AM »
I just want to make sure everyone understands that you are not going to get a TH or PHA calf unless you breed 2 carriers. You will have a 50% chance of a carrier if you use a non carrier to a carrier. I appreciate the video (even if I can't watch it) but I just want to make sure we've got our mables in the same bag!
Don't stop using Maines, Shorthorns or crosses because of the defect. Do your homework, talk to breeders & be aware!


Red
Or, simply stay away from Carriers, PERIOD. Quit using them. Dr. Beever created the test to ID carrier cattle, so they may be eliminated from a breeding population. This type of attitude ( which mirrors the comfort to complacency transition), has resulted in MORE carriers being created, since a "dirty" cow can be mated to a "clean" bull, with no heartbreak.

Just don't think folks understand.

GB

GB, I have a question...Won't the people that are breeding carrier cattle only hurt themselves if everyone else is aware of the situation? If these breeders of carrier cattle go and try to sell some carrier heifers, the "smart" people will stay away from them, and then the breeder will be stuck with the calves, or ship them to be eaten.  I don't think that people that breed the carriers are going to affect you or I directly..this is a problem that will end itself.  Let one of those arrogant people go ahead and breed two carriers together...if they get a PHA or TH calf, that will be the last time that they will try that little experiment.  That is, unless they are complete dullards, in which case, they are lost to us forever anyway.


Please understand that my hypothetical world here is IDEAL.  I know that it is not this simple, but it should be.
Unfortuneately, it will also be the LAST TIME any of them, their family, friends, neighbors etc, will buy a Shorthorn or Maine-Anjou.
The problem will not end, it will perpetuate itself, as 50% of offspring of Carrier Dams mated to "Clean" Sires will be Carriers.
This problem willnot go away, unless a completely different mindset ..................................................................................................................................................
.........I'm gonna "shush".

I don't think it matters to people.

GB

Online knabe

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 13283
  • Karma 2
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2008, 11:13:32 AM »
I don't think it matters to people.
GB

this is so totally true.  neighbor that just had the TH calf, just bred the double cunia cow to irish whiskey.  i warned them about monkey mouth and creating another PHA carrier, but they basically said, at least it's a carrier and i can breed her to a clean bull.  i have my doubts they would have the offspring tested, but you never know.  they didn't have their TH carrier cow tested out of known bloodlines bred to a known carrier.

ugh

the ONLY reason i would breed a carrier, or breed a free one to a carrier, is if i thought there was something valuable other than the PHA phenotype, and it would be a fullblood.  i would not be keeping ANY carrier offspring from that mating, unless that carrier was "better" than the previous carrier, in hopes of getting clean ones to tease out any redeeming qualities from the carrier lines.  this would be an extremely small number of cattle and only an experiment, not a multiplier.  this is the only reason, in my view, of using carrier genetics.  a breeding experiment.   others i understand, don't see any merit in the carrier lines, as the junk % is too high, and don't see a downside to extinguishing those fb lines.  i'm not ready to say that yet.  i will be at some point, but not today.  i won't pass on any to anyone.
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline SWMO

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 715
  • Karma 29
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2008, 11:15:08 AM »
I think that we all lose sight of the fact that it is the cow carrying the PHA calf that ultimately suffers. :'(  Yes , I hate losing any calf in the aspect of the financial loss.

  However, it is frightening that we are all losing sight of the treamendous suffering that a cow in a cold barn "with an old vet and a young farmer/rancher" is experiencing.  We have had many hard pulls in our lifetime and I have never enjoyed the suffering that we put the cow and the calf through. That is why legitimate birth weights are so important to me I don't want to harm a first calf heifer by breeding her to a bull with outrageous birthweights.   It borders on criminal not to mention being inhumane to be deliberately putting an animal in harms way if you can prevent it. And PHA can now be prevented.  At this point in science, it is needless for any cow to be having a PHA calf.

 It seems to me that in having identified the PHA gene and knowing how to eliminate the problem the breed associations should be doing all in their power to get this completely under control.  What a video for PETA to get their hands on.  It would be easy to twist this issue around and talk about the lack of responsibility and self control that animal agriculture is showing and push for more governmental restraints and oversight.

Offline garybob

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
  • Karma 72
  • Cease with Cranial-rectal Infusion!
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2008, 11:19:48 AM »
I think that we all lose sight of the fact that it is the cow carrying the PHA calf that ultimately suffers. :'(  Yes , I hate losing any calf in the aspect of the financial loss.

  However, it is frightening that we are all losing sight of the treamendous suffering that a cow in a cold barn "with an old vet and a young farmer/rancher" is experiencing.  We have had many hard pulls in our lifetime and I have never enjoyed the suffering that we put the cow and the calf through. That is why legitimate birth weights are so important to me I don't want to harm a first calf heifer by breeding her to a bull with outrageous birthweights.   It borders on criminal not to mention being inhumane to be deliberately putting an animal in harms way if you can prevent it. And PHA can now be prevented.  At this point in science, it is needless for any cow to be having a PHA calf.

 It seems to me that in having identified the PHA gene and knowing how to eliminate the problem the breed associations should be doing all in their power to get this completely under control.  What a video for PETA to get their hands on.  It would be easy to twist this issue around and talk about the lack of responsibility and self control that animal agriculture is showing and push for more governmental restraints and oversight.
All the more reason to stay the heck away from these monsters.
Besides, the 'stated goal' of these show-cattle ''enterprises" is for "family enjoyment'' and ''education''. If you kid can't handle being second in a class of three at a Jackpot Show....can they handle their favorite heifer dying a-tryin' to calve to one of these "Insults to Bovinity"?

Stop the  Cranial-rectal infusion!

GB

Offline itk

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 556
  • Karma 53
  • "The Choice"
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2008, 11:35:10 AM »
TH just isn't in post legged "steer bulls" it is everywhere. Some of the most respected commercial breeders in the nation have knowingly or unknowingly used carrier genetics. Go look at a pasture of Improver 57 daughters and tell me that we need to get rid of all carrier cows or that they have no place in the industry. There are numerous THC cows that can have a tremendous commercial impact through their THF offspring. Test all of her calves and if they are THC cut the bull calves and keep the heifers that will improve your herd. If they are THF the sky is the limit. There is a fine line that can be walked with this whole genetic defect situation. IMO those who are able to get the positive traits from carrier lines in a none carrier animal will be ahead in the long run. One of the happiest days of my life was finding out that our Dream Girl donor was THF. However if she was THC it wouldn't have made her any less of a cow in our eyes because 50% of her calves would still be THF. We have several pregnancies coming out of her and Eagle 148 this spring. We feel this is an outstanding mating, and even if she would have been THC there would be at least one THF son that could do the breed a world of good. My biggest frustration with PHA and TH is the perception that it only occurs in show cattle but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

DL, I'm not going to watch your video(I can't even watch doctor shows on tv) but thank you for posting it. I think it is important to educate people on what can happen when carriers are mated to carriers. We have never had a TH or PHA calf but just the thought of what could happen is enough to prevent me from mating carriers. IMO most people who bred carriers to carrier don't think defective calves can  be that bad but hopefully now people will realize what a gruesome result is possible.
There are three kinds of people in life: those who can count and those who can't.

Offline DL

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3622
  • Karma 284
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2008, 12:08:47 PM »

DL, I'm not going to watch your video(I can't even watch doctor shows on tv) but thank you for posting it. I think it is important to educate people on what can happen when carriers are mated to carriers. We have never had a TH or PHA calf but just the thought of what could happen is enough to prevent me from mating carriers. IMO most people who bred carriers to carrier don't think defective calves can  be that bad but hopefully now people will realize what a gruesome result is possible.

itk - sounds like you wouldn't be much help in the surgery room ;D

SWMO - I was thinking exactly that as I was moving round bales this am - when does breeding a PHA carrier to a PHA carrier become a real welfare issue?

My purpose was certainly not to denigrate any specific breed - heavens I breed Maines but to encourage people to become better educated and use their brains when making breeding decisions. Just because a commercial cow doesn't have a pedigree with a known carrier in it doesn't make her clean and no once she has the PHA calf it is not necessary to test her status. I can't count the number of times I have gotten calls when people knowingly bred to a PHAC bull because they assumed the cow was clean because her sire was clean...hmmm GB I think you are right most people still don't get it.

These defects are everywhere (anybody remember chicken man?). In 2004 more than half of the top 10 sires more than half of the top 10 sires for number of Shorthorn registrations were putative carriers. In 2005, 21 of 24 black composite AI sires offered by a single vendor are tested as carriers. In a popular 2007 sire directory, one third of bulls were TH carriers, including clones and sons of a popular TH carrier club calf bull. Of the 10 most popular Shorthorn AI sires for 2006 calves, 3 were carriers for both TH and PHA and one was a carrier of TH.

aj - I don't think anyone is going to ever answer your question

zach - I agree - you don't want a defective calf but at least with TH the cow is likely to survive and thrive - but I'll tell you those TH calves born alive dragging themselves around are heartbreakers

My motto for 2008
Breed clean, if you can't breed clean breed smart,
There is really no excuse for a PHA calf
Going to church doesn't make you a christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car

Offline red

  • Red
  • Forum Moderator
  • National Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 7850
  • Karma 65481
  • Gidget, my Money Man heifer
    • View Profile
    • Red Maple Maines
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2008, 12:35:49 PM »
I tend to agree DL, especially not knowing how registrations will work for the Maines past 2009. I just read some of the comments on over boards & get the feeling that some still don't get it as far as needing 2 carriers.
I must have a really weak stomach or just not be able to handle some stuff. I too turn away from some shows like CSI when there is too much blood.

Red
"People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care"
" Some succeed because they are destined to,
but most succeed because they are determined to."
www.redmaplemaines.com

Online knabe

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 13283
  • Karma 2
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2008, 12:49:37 PM »
I jget the feeling that some still don't get it as far as needing 2 carriers.
Red

even if you took a poll asking people that, the poll would probably be 100% understand it takes two carriers, and the other 100% that didn't respond wouldn not understand.
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline Show Heifer

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2221
  • Karma 179
  • Sometimes its just worth the risk
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2008, 02:38:52 PM »
Some people don't understand, and hence the vigilance. It take two to make a dead, deformed calf, and it takes on parent carrier to create more carriers which in turn can create a dead deformed calf. As long as everyone understands that and test, we'll a be hunky dory!!!
You had tthe right not display your lack of command of the english language. Too bad you have chosen not to. - Brit, senior student

Offline itk

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 556
  • Karma 53
  • "The Choice"
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2008, 03:31:27 PM »

DL, I'm not going to watch your video(I can't even watch doctor shows on tv) but thank you for posting it. I think it is important to educate people on what can happen when carriers are mated to carriers. We have never had a TH or PHA calf but just the thought of what could happen is enough to prevent me from mating carriers. IMO most people who bred carriers to carrier don't think defective calves can  be that bad but hopefully now people will realize what a gruesome result is possible.

itk - sounds like you wouldn't be much help in the surgery room ;D


DL The first calf my son ever saw born was a c-section when he was around four. The next calf that was born came naturally and my son was for sure that something was wrong with the calf since we didn't have to cut open the cow's tummy. For some reason I'm fine in the heat of the moment performing cattle operations but the thought of sitting down and watching a PHA calf be "born" doesn't appeal to me at all. Like I said before just the thought of having to get one of those calves out of a cow is enough for me never to mate 2 carriers.
There are three kinds of people in life: those who can count and those who can't.

Offline Doc

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3635
  • Karma 155
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2008, 04:10:16 PM »
TH just isn't in post legged "steer bulls" it is everywhere. Some of the most respected commercial breeders in the nation have knowingly or unknowingly used carrier genetics. Go look at a pasture of Improver 57 daughters and tell me that we need to get rid of all carrier cows or that they have no place in the industry. There are numerous THC cows that can have a tremendous commercial impact through their THF offspring. Test all of her calves and if they are THC cut the bull calves and keep the heifers that will improve your herd. If they are THF the sky is the limit. There is a fine line that can be walked with this whole genetic defect situation. IMO those who are able to get the positive traits from carrier lines in a none carrier animal will be ahead in the long run. One of the happiest days of my life was finding out that our Dream Girl donor was THF. However if she was THC it wouldn't have made her any less of a cow in our eyes because 50% of her calves would still be THF. We have several pregnancies coming out of her and Eagle 148 this spring. We feel this is an outstanding mating, and even if she would have been THC there would be at least one THF son that could do the breed a world of good. My biggest frustration with PHA and TH is the perception that it only occurs in show cattle but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

DL, I'm not going to watch your video(I can't even watch doctor shows on tv) but thank you for posting it. I think it is important to educate people on what can happen when carriers are mated to carriers. We have never had a TH or PHA calf but just the thought of what could happen is enough to prevent me from mating carriers. IMO most people who bred carriers to carrier don't think defective calves can  be that bad but hopefully now people will realize what a gruesome result is possible.
I've got to agree with you ITK. I will not just go out & ship any carrier cows just because they are THC. Now I had 2 that it was the final nail in their culling coffin & they got shipped. I won't use a carrier bull natural service , though.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline SWMO

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 715
  • Karma 29
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2008, 09:32:45 PM »
I still think that you guys are missing the BIG picture.  ANIMAL WELFARE  have you seen the videos of the poor abused dogs and horses? Even in SW Missouri it makes the news BiG TIME.  Think how the video that DL posted would play with the right commentary. I could come up with some great stuff myself and I love animal agriculture and am a firm believer in personal freedom.

 Think how the commercial guy with 100 plus cows to calve in the middle of January would feel if he even lost a small percentage of his COWS and CALVES due to having purchased two different carrier bulls over the course of several years and retained OUTSTANDING heifers and had the misfortune of mating those OUTSTANDING replacement heifers/cows to a carrier bull that he purchased because he has had good success or advice from a purebred breeder (with few scruples or simply uniformed himself).  I know the stress we go through calving out the 20-30 cows that we calve out each Spring.  Can you imagine the wreck and the stress in calving out 100+ with this potential problem then add in the financial loss that commercial producer has experienced when he makes his entire living on those cows.  He will never come back to your breed or to you as a producer.  Respect is very hard to regain after it is lost.  It is not a matter of if this happens but when.

 Las Vegas is a great place to gamble.  My reputation is not

Judy

Offline itk

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 556
  • Karma 53
  • "The Choice"
    • View Profile
Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2008, 10:54:54 PM »
SWMO there is a big difference between the resulting offspring of a genetic defect and animal cruelty. Lethal genetic defects are in every specie of animal from alligators to zebras. Purebred sheep hogs horses cattle and even dogs have genetic defects appear in the population from time to time but it is no way abuse but a part of nature. I admit it is or job as caretakes to try to prevent these occurrences but it dose happen. We would never think of charging the parents of a baby who died from a gentic disorder with child abuse.

If you read my post I have nothing but the utmost respect for these defects and feel that they need to be handled with care. I would never sell a potential carrier to a commercial operation or anyone for that matter unless they were fully aware of the long term ramifications. That is why I say cut all carrier males and retain all carrier females in order to stop the defect from spreading. I admit that there are unsavory people in the cattle industry who would not give a second thought to selling a carrier animal to a unknowing buyer. However lumping those of us who are trying to preserve the positive traits that some carrier animals poses and who manage their genetic status diligently in with the lowest common denominator in the cattle industry is a bit offensive.
There are three kinds of people in life: those who can count and those who can't.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
23 Replies
10638 Views
Last post February 05, 2008, 09:09:40 PM
by Zach
25 Replies
10608 Views
Last post August 14, 2008, 05:52:29 PM
by Zach
0 Replies
1779 Views
Last post November 02, 2008, 08:54:54 AM
by red
32 Replies
15421 Views
Last post December 31, 2008, 10:05:03 PM
by savaged
15 Replies
7574 Views
Last post May 15, 2009, 09:53:06 PM
by farwest

Powered by EzPortal

SteerPlanet Designed Websites

SteerPlanet Designed Websites

Steer Planet Classifieds & Auctions

Breeder Directory