PHA calf video

Help Support Steer Planet:

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
Frostback asked for a noncontroversial name the breed but I don't have a picture here (I'll try later, honest!) - so instead I posted a video of a C-section of a PHA calf on youtube -

If you have not had the unpleasant experience of having a PHA calf this likely will give you pause. The cow was euthanized because of peritonitis. It is in 2 parts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bsu7tvjMUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_CA2qr17n8
(cow)

 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
I see where JHM is eating his words. It takes a big man to do that. Sorry his wife had a TH calf.

Thanks!

Red
 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
sorry DL, weak stomach just couldn't take it. Now I know why the guys send me in when they have problems calving.  :'(
Red
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
i watched it.  inadvertently it is a name the breed.  is it maine?

dl, has anyone ever done a c-section in the field on a pha calf, er cow, successfully, ie, the cow lived and gave birth at some point again?

good job.
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
knabe said:
i watched it.  inadvertently it is a name the breed.  is it maine?

dl, has anyone ever done a c-section in the field on a pha calf, er cow, successfully, ie, the cow lived and gave birth at some point again?

good job.

actually knabe,  Frostback wanted name the breed but I don't have any pictures here so I gave you this instead!

There are cases where the cow lives after a PHA calf, both hard pull and C-section. There are also cases where the cow rebreeds. There are also cases where the cow has to be shot because even after a C-section they cannot get the calf out. 
 

shortyjock89

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
4,465
Location
IL
Wow...that was gut-wrenching.  I sure am glad that we are testing everything nowadays.  I really feel for the folks who had one of these monsters before we knew about PHA. 

Oh, and if I had to guess on the breed, I would say 'horn.  Ugly beasties those PHA buggers be.
 

showsteerdlux

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
1,765
Location
Western NC
Ok I am now a believer. I knew that PHA wasn't a good thing, but, wow, that ain't easy to see. I sure am glad that people are now taking steps to test more for this. Any estimates on the weight of the calf? How far over or under term was he?
 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
usually the calf is so heavy from the excess fluid build-up. i've heard of them weighing over 180 pounds.
Any thing on TH calf's birth?
Just remember, you need 2 carriers mating/AI'd  for the affected calf.

Red
 

kimbaljd

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
476
Location
Alvin
Wow, that was an experience! I just finished my lunch right before I watched that. That calf is huge.
 

Show Dad

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
5,127
Location
1 AU from a G2 yellow dwarf star
DL - That was cool! 8)

But what a waste. This is why I won't buy into certain breeds or clubbies.

Can you tell me what breeds have this problem? Are breeds with the breed up programs at risk of bringing this problem into their registries?
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
dexters
http://pdca-one.blogspot.com/2007/02/pha-in-dexters.html

shorthorns, through stinger mainly
pb chi's crossed with maine's mainly, chimaine
maine's
angus maybe, but could be bulldogs, unless "hidden" parentage
crossbreds to the above

probably more, but most probably don't have the pool of ladies in waiting that the above breeds do.

no real selection pressure till 25 years ago, and it increased dramatically a few years ago.

would love to see if present in france population of maines
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
SD said:
DL - That was cool! 8)

But what a waste. This is why I won't buy into certain breeds or clubbies.

Can you tell me what breeds have this problem? Are breeds with the breed up programs at risk of bringing this problem into their registries?

Yeah SD - a huge waste both of a cow and calf.

In the US the Maine Anjou breed is the origin of PHA. It is felt that an early European import (to either US or Canada0 brought the defective gene - 2 old fullblood bulls - Paramount and Dalton have been identified as carriers, but we haven't been able to go back before that.

In "modern times" 3 relatively popular AI bulls have been the source of the defective gene in Maines, Shorthorns, and composite cattle. Draft Pick and Stinger (MA bulls) as Payback (registered with the ACA) are the source of the defect . The defective gene was identified using Draft Pick genetics (you need lost of samples from clean, carrier and affected animals) as well as complete pedigrees. Stinger was used in the Shorthorn breed, and most PHA carrier Shorthorns trace to him (not all). Paramount is also found in Shorthorn pedigrees. Paybacks pedigree is incomplete, but genetically both he and Stinger seem to trace to Dalton, while Draft Pick traces to Paramount. There is on registered half blood Simmie bull (Theobald 696) who is a carrier (Stinger).

People make the mistake of thinking that if the sire is clean and the bottom half of the pedigree says something like MAX that the cow is clean and they use carrier bulls with bad results.

There are lists of carriers available although not as easily as before - but certainly any breed using carrier genetics is at risk of giving the gift of PHA to their breed. When the gene was first identified in late 2006, over 40 popular Maine-Anjou, Shorthorn, and “club calf” sires were identified as PHA carriers. Interestingly, several of the most popular Shorthorn bulls are carrier for both TH and PHA.

A recent report from Australia described PHA in Dexter cattle - the defect in the Dexter breed is different from the defect  that originated with the MA breed.
 

Show Dad

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
5,127
Location
1 AU from a G2 yellow dwarf star
Thanks for the info in your relies, DL & Knabe.

I know this running theme, PHA & TH, has been, at times, passionate, but I have found it informative and interesting. One of my pet peeves is to always be given as much information as possible when buying cattle and this has caused me to add a few more question on my list. So thanks DL.

 

CAB

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
5,607
Location
Corning,Iowa
The truth of the matter is, that any breed can carry the defective gene. Any cow that has been mated to a PHAC, the offspring has a chance of being a carrier. By some of the questions and responses, the teaching about PHA and TH is far from done. I used to think that pretty much everyone that was on the boards could not be unaware of how  the defective genes work their evil, so I say DL & whoever, you still need to champion your cause. I myself am still more than likely going to use bulls that are carriers. That is my choice, but I sure don't want others to be hurt in anyway by these 2 recessive genetic defects.
  The breeds listed above are the main culprits. Most breeds can be analyzed clean by pedigrees, but if there ever was a chance that a hf/cow was mated to a PHAC, they will be as vulnerable as any other hf/cow. If you read  the thread yesterday, Red & Yuppiecowboy cleaned up a bunch of my females by pedigree.
 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
but remember CAB, it's only good if you're sure the pedigrees are correct.  ???

Red

 

dori36

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
969
Location
Central Lower Michigan
SD said:
DL - That was cool! 8)

But what a waste. This is why I won't buy into certain breeds or clubbies.

Can you tell me what breeds have this problem? Are breeds with the breed up programs at risk of bringing this problem into their registries?

ABS has a long list of carriers posted on their website:  www.absglobal.com/beef.  Click on the TH/PHA tab and you can see their list of names.

DL, that was absolutely amazing and tragic.  I guess I've been "sheltered" from personally experiencing anything l ike that with my choice of breeds and activities.  Where was that Csection being performed?
 

Doc

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
3,636
Location
Cottontown, Tennessee
Hey DL, Thanks for doing that. Very informative. I've seen pictures & heard the stories but seeing it like that , sure wakes you up.
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
Couple of things to notice about the video -
it is inside
the cow is under general anesthesia (ie completely out)
there are a ton of people involved in this surgery (all young and strong)
the calf was dead, the cow was killed, and everyone was physically and emotionally drained

now imagine trying to do it standing in a barn in the cold with just you and an old vet (or maybe an old you and a young vet). Then imagine having to bury the cow and the calf in the frozen ground.

PHA causes dystocia because of the massive size of the calf due to the tremendous fluid accumulation. Re TH it does not usually cause dystocia because the calves are not huge per se, but rather their legs are twisted, they have abdominal hernias etc - with wierd presentations of TH calves there could be an increase in dystocia but nothing like PHA.

Despite the beauty and great skill of the surgeon, she is not me, but a talented friend. I thank her for the video and permission to share it - her motives both education and she (nor I nor any rational human being) don't want to have to do this ever again.

Doc, dori, zach, SD, red, SJ - you are very welcome


 

farmboy

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
5,652
Location
south webster ohio
if i had to choose, which i hope i dont  ;)

id take a th calf over a pha calf.

i remeber awhile ago i heard there was a set of PHA twins born somewhere which leads me to another question, if their twins, can one be a deformed calf, the other be normal? still get the other calf out alive?
 
Top