PHA calf video

Doc · Jan 15, 2008

Jill said:
garybob said:

TJ said:

DL said:

dori36 said:

TJ said:

Sadly, some of the percentage Lowlines have been crossed with Shorthorn & Maine's that are "known" PHA & TH carriers. Even a few potenial carriers have been sold at the National Sale. I have never heard the words TH or PHA ever mentioned by a Lowline breeder & it will be a sad day when one of those percentage Lowlines has a PHA or TH calf & the owner will likely be totally clueless as to why it happened. Without education & testing, sooner or later, it will happen & the owner is going to be awfully upset.

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Actually, Rocky Mtn Lowlines (Dana & Rick Sekich) and Melanie Schroeder (my longtime fitter and shower) have talked at length about both PHA and TH. Rocky Mtn is using a few SH's to cross w/Lowline genetics but they have been tested. Maybe it would be a good topic to focus on at next year's banquet/meeting?

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dori & TJ
If you decide to do that I have pictures (video) and other stuff you could use....DL

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Thank you! I may be contacting you fairly soon about this issue.

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When this happens, and, it WILL happen, the ENTIRE Shorthorn breed will get blamed (and banned), not just ''carrier lines''. I blame the show-ring people for this.

GB

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From what I have seen, you blame the show ring people for everything. There doesn't seem to be much about Shorthorns that you DO like, why not find a breed that more "fits" your program?

Gotta back you up here Jill!!!

dori36 · Jan 16, 2008

Showheifer said: <<I think the maines and shorties should have to require a PHA/TH test regardless of parentage and have the results on the registration paper. That way no "confusion" could be had with clean vs. carrier pedigrees. Plus, never have figured out how some people decide whether it is a AI calf or bull bred calf when they AI then turn the bull out. Hmmmmm.....>>

Agreed. From my personal experience, the clean-up bull usually isn't the same bull as the AI bull. The breeding dates versus the birthdate of the calf tells which bull bred the cow. Most breeders don't turn the clean-up bull in right after the ai'ing. They wait at least long enough to be sure the cow isn't in heat any more. In Lowlines, if there's still a question, DNA testing will decide.

DL · Jan 16, 2008

dori36 said:
Showheifer said: <<I think the maines and shorties should have to require a PHA/TH test regardless of parentage and have the results on the registration paper. That way no "confusion" could be had with clean vs. carrier pedigrees. Plus, never have figured out how some people decide whether it is a AI calf or bull bred calf when they AI then turn the bull out. Hmmmmm.....>>

Agreed. From my personal experience, the clean-up bull usually isn't the same bull as the AI bull. The breeding dates versus the birthdate of the calf tells which bull bred the cow. Most breeders don't turn the clean-up bull in right after the ai'ing. They wait at least long enough to be sure the cow isn't in heat any more. In Lowlines, if there's still a question, DNA testing will decide.

dori - don't entirely agree here - when we were involved in the gene hunt for PHA, several prominent bulls were repeatedly thought to be PHA carriers because the PHA calf was born on th eAI date - turns out that iin many cases the PHA calves are born early (but they are so huge that they look full term). It wasn't until the gene was identified that these bulls were exonerated

somebody somewhere asked the breed and if they had correctly heard that the cow in the video (now deceased) has previously had a PHA calf - she was a Shorthorn and yes this was her 2nd PHA calf and last calf...

red · Jan 16, 2008

wow, 2nd PHA calf. Now that is really bad! I guess I just don't understand the thinking on that one. ??? :-\

Red

knabe · Jan 16, 2008

psychotic

doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

by chance alone, i guess one could expect a different result.

justme · Jan 16, 2008

I really think its irresponsible, cruel to the cow, and plain rediculous they did that a second time. wow! for once, I'm speechless

knabe · Jan 16, 2008

more defects

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2737

i'll look into this

dl, any chance these are upcoming by you?

DL · Jan 16, 2008

knabe said:
more defects

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2737

i'll look into this

dl, any chance these are upcoming by you?

red, justme - I am with you on this one!
insanity is the art of repeating the same thing and expecting different results

knabe -
C-H Syndrome was identified in cattle in the 60's and the gene identified in Japanese cattle in the late 90s -

the Angus (AAA) are dealing (or not dealing) with 2 defects currently - fawn calf syndrome and the long nosed dwarf
I believe the point being made on the post you referred to is that they were using genetic testing to identify carriers and eliminate the problem....

knabe · Jan 16, 2008

dl, true about the testing,

but no snorters in angus? or are they largely gone with pedigree elimination similar to what was done with herefords?

DL · Jan 16, 2008

knabe said:
dl, true about the testing,

but no snorters in angus? or are they largely gone with pedigree elimination similar to what was done with herefords?

I think like many things Angus it is a secret- according to the book they did not do what the Herefords did

aj · Jan 17, 2008

Keep up the good work DL.Excellent thread. Have you heard anything on hs nobody's fool pha status? Just kidding.

garybob · Jan 18, 2008

DL said:
knabe said:

dl, true about the testing,

but no snorters in angus? or are they largely gone with pedigree elimination similar to what was done with herefords?

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I think like many things Angus it is a secret- according to the book they did not do what the Herefords did

I'm amazed that both Hereford and Angus cattle were able to eliminate the mentioned genetic defect WITHOUT "quick" DNA tests, but Two breeds (Not mentioning any names, sorry Guys) can't get it done today?

GB

justme · Jan 18, 2008

I think the breeds you are hinting about were just open and honest about it. How else can there members help eliminate the problems? I think the other mentioned breeds have more defects than we'll ever (as the public) know. No breed is perfect, we as breeders can just do what is best, and within our means.

DL · Jan 18, 2008

garybob said:
DL said:

knabe said:

dl, true about the testing,

but no snorters in angus? or are they largely gone with pedigree elimination similar to what was done with herefords?

Click to expand...

I think like many things Angus it is a secret- according to the book they did not do what the Herefords did

Click to expand...

I'm amazed that both Hereford and Angus cattle were able to eliminate the mentioned genetic defect WITHOUT "quick" DNA tests, but Two breeds (Not mentioning any names, sorry Guys) can't get it done today?

GB

actually GB the Herefords eliminated it but I believe the other breed and the association associated with it took the ostrich approach that is still prevalent today - call the AAA and ask them about Fawn Calf Syndrome - there have been breeding trials in Australia - the breeding traces to US genetics - and I can't get them to be interested in a potential case here in the US - in fact they have ignored it since Nov!! While you are at it ask them about the Long Nosed Dwarf and why testing for it has to go thru the AAA lab (despite the fact that the test was developed elsewhere??) ---isn't that like the fox guarding the hen house??? And remember the old snorter dwarf was not eliminated in the Herefords overnight - just like it didn't appear overnight - As I delve into other defects in other breeds I am actually more impressed with both the AMAA and the ASA - were they perfect - he** NO! but by comparison --- and I agree that they were just more open - perhaps the internet forced this openness (remember there was no internet at the turn of the century

KDSC · Jan 18, 2008

Long Nosed Dwarf- is that when they get that roman nose look?? dont know if any one else uses that term or but...

Show Heifer · Jan 19, 2008

I have called the ang assoc and I get the biggest run around and transfered to every office at the assoc. Never once did they even acknowledge they knew what I was talking about. So looks like I have some work to do!!! I don't care what assoc it is, it is wrong to play games with people trying to make money raising cattle. Maybe some of those slack wearing, loafer wearing, hair in perfect place office workers need to get off their butts and look at what they are representing. CATTLE and CATTLEMEN. Wow, what a concept that would be.

garybob · Jan 19, 2008

KDSC said:
Long Nosed Dwarf- is that when they get that roman nose look?? dont know if any one else uses that term or but...

My Grandfather, My Dad's Dad, always used the term "Horse-Headed Son-of-a-Guns" to describe Roman-nosed Cattle. I wish, when I was younger, I had taken down all those phrases and but 'em in a Notebook.

GB

DL · Jan 19, 2008

KDSC said:
Long Nosed Dwarf- is that when they get that roman nose look?? dont know if any one else uses that term or but...

Actually the long nosed dwarf is in contrast to the "old" ever popular "snorter dwarf" - there is a picture of a snorter in one of the extension bulletin - Ill find it. The long nose looks pretty normal - nose wise - so they don't look "roman nosed" - some of the monkey mouth calves have a "sheep" type head and look monkey moth like - Ill have more info soon - dwarf wise

knabe · Jan 22, 2008

DL said:
actually GB the Herefords eliminated it but I believe the other breed and the association associated with it took the ostrich approach that is still prevalent today - call the AAA and ask them about Fawn Calf Syndrome - there have been breeding trials in Australia - the breeding traces to US genetics - and I can't get them to be interested in a potential case here in the US - in fact they have ignored it since Nov!! While you are at it ask them about the Long Nosed Dwarf and why testing for it has to go thru the AAA lab (despite the fact that the test was developed elsewhere??) ---isn't that like the fox guarding the hen house??? And remember the old snorter dwarf was not eliminated in the Herefords overnight - just like it didn't appear overnight - As I delve into other defects in other breeds I am actually more impressed with both the AMAA and the ASA - were they perfect - he** NO! but by comparison --- and I agree that they were just more open - perhaps the internet forced this openness (remember there was no internet at the turn of the century

hereford breeders revolted at a national convention as those in power wanted to keep all records of carriers quiet. story is in a book titled battle of the bull runts or something similar. got a copy for christmas. it took about 30 years for enough ladies in waiting to accrue, and as linebreeding kinda went out of favor with the dispersal of gudgell and simpson, though one breeder after them still practiced it a lot. i think the comment in the book alluding that the angus had it as well was kind of a slight.

by the way, check out this website in progress!!!!!!!!!!!!! he wrote the basics of linebreeding. too much of the book details the founding of jewish ancestry versus the same example in herefords, but you get the point about concentrating genetics can have power if you cull. when you don't cull, and or test cross, you get in trouble.

http://www.anxietyherefords.com/

here's an online version of hereford history

http://books.google.com/books?id=k1UaAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA958&lpg=PA958&dq=anxiety+4th&source=web&ots=J6NHBecVBl&sig=9RIOLxeH5M18VvbrshN2-Jea-aw#PPA956,M1

amazing the prices paid back then and the rapid "progress" made.

another book talks about herefords and performance cattle called courageous cattleman and there's one story in there about comprest cattle and some pretty amazing breeders.

red · Jan 22, 2008

DL- after the comments on BW from the c-section expert ??? I wondered- was this at a teaching college or a vet clinic? How many PHA calves has she delievered?

thanks,
Red

PHA calf video

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