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First of all hats off to Wiseguy for his efforts in establishing a test of this caliber.The positives I see are to provide breeders with a level playing field to see how their genetics compare against other lines and to help validate the 50k test.Besides the cost one of my concerns is that the test is designed for the more terminal type Shorthorn lines to excel and with that comes the risk of the calving issue to arise.I don't think the breed has fixed and reinforced that fix  to the point where the standards set for this test can prevent a train wreck.Case in point I had a visitor here recently who told me about a 138lb dead calf sired by a bull that meets the ASA requirements for this test.This is a great opportunity to make a positive impact for the breed but we must be careful not to do something that could hamper our ability to market this breed as a maternal component.
 For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.
Gary, thanks for bringing up credit to Wiseguy. I want to say the same. Thanks Wiseguy for the passion and the effort put fort to get this going. I really do hope this happens and it is successful. I also agree with Gary and that is actually what I was getting at in my earlier comment Wes. I think the intention is correct to go after low birthweight bulls but it needs to be aggressive. Curve benders like Duncraggan said like the bulls I mentioned are supposed to be. Our better than average birth weight bulls are a lot worse than the better than average Simmental and Charolais bulls. If you aren't a Shorthorn insider then you don't know this. I wouldn't take the word of the people of U. of I on this because we all know that people have been guessing on birthweights and using measuring bands to get bw's for far too long in this breed and those numbers are not accurate. We scale weigh 100% of our calves and we try to guess each one before we weigh them and it is still difficult after your 60th calf of the year. My bull, A&T Renegade is rated the #9 bull in the breed right now for birth weight and his calves have only averaged 78 lbs. That's the ninth best bull in the breed! I can't guarantee to them that he won't sire a few out of 15 that wouldn't be over 90 lbs. So if you start talking about average birth weight epd just exactly what are we talking about? I never got contacted about my bull either and he is one of the top bulls for low birth weight and calving ease in the breed when you look at progeny recorded. Ribeye and marbling too for that matter. I did received a letter about the program in the mail but nothing specific about Renegade. I wish this conversation could have started about 6 months ago. How long has this been in the works?
As I stated earlier the talks started mid May and we had to let U of I know within 30-45 days. If you received a letter I consider that contact. No specific Bulls were asked to join, just the owners of such Bulls. Once again the ASA reserves the right to not accept a bull, so if he doesn't fit the program he doesn't get it. If you have suggestions contact a board member or Montie.

Second, Dr. Shike is an outstanding cattleman with a solid cattle background in Angus genetics. I don't think that he miss spoke when he made his comment. Especially when they had used high growth Simmental and Charolais sires.

Finally, do you really think all of the people that recieved emails are misrepresenting their cattle and Bws? Is everyone a liar? I hold a lot of respect for these people and trust their word. I understand this deal needs to be right, but just because it's not how you would do it doesn't make it wrong. Put Renegade in and put your money is where your mouth is! Not being rude. I'm being serious!

That's what I'm getting at. The project design really only verifies what is already known- what universities do best. So it is just advertising for marketing certain sires- that work for certain things. Will it really sell beef or create a market?
CAB is a business model that is attached to a branded end product. That requires venture capital far beyond $2000 per participant. I don't think the money is well spent unless whoever owns the cows and raises the calves gets a premium for the best ones. 

Librarian don't we need to have proof that we have a premium product before we try and market it? What good is it to promote something, with nothing to back it up but opinion and word of mouth. If we are going to have relevance of any kind in the beef industry we must have facts and science to back it up. That is why the conversion and intake side of this trial is so important in my opinion. Yes we are not a terminal breed, but we still harvest our cattle.


 For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.

I know Lovings have been contacted and Marty is aware of the trial. Doesn't he own 4508?

The other comment I have is that these are being bred to angus cows for fall calves. We all know the calves will be smaller because of this. Additionally, we brought up these concerns to Dr. Shike. His exact words were, "I'm not concerned after breeding this group to Simmental and Charolais Bulls without problem." I agree that still doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned. If you have a concern please contact a board member of the ASA.

I will say we wanted to keep back the F1 females and place them for future use. This is where I see great value, but that was not feasible or affordable at this point in time.

Once again, we have to start somewhere. People complain that the Association does nothing, then when they do something it's not the right thing.

Josh I thought I made this clear when we talked, but one of the requirements is that a bull must be above breed average for BW epd, and at least 50% accuracy. And all participating Bulls need the new 150k genomic test. At least that is what Jake and I discussed. Now that he has moved on I'm not sure. Marbling was our second criteria for selection. All the Bulls you listed the breeders have been contacted.  Once again the U of I asked us to use "high accuracy" sires. Believe me when I say there was a lot of time and discussion put into this. The board, Montie, Jake, and I talked a lot about what Bulls and breeders would make this a valuable experience. No one is just throwing darts at a board and hopeing they stick. But remember even if the trial was free to breeders, the ASA can't make them participate!

After some thought I decided to "clear the air" about this sire test. As the person that got the ball rolling so to speak I think it is important to state all the information and facts. Additionally, I will add my opinion in regards to the cost.

In mid May I contacted the U of I after I learned of a similar test that the Simmental and Charolais Associations had done. I have several friends at the University and was at the start just being curious. After some talks with Dr. Dan Shike I realized this was an actual possibility, and called Jake at ASA. Once we determined that the Association would be interested we had a conference call to iron out the details.

The Dixon Springs research facility has 900 non-registered Angus cows. So commercial cows. Our initial thought was to time A.I. between 200-300 cows to a select  group of "High Accuracy" sires. The resulting offspring will be weaned, moved to U of I and fed out until harvest. At this time the carcass data will be recorded along with INDIVIDUAL CONVERSION AND INTAKE DATA! Now to me that is huge. Additionally, these cattle will maintain the same Contemporary group from BIRTH TO HARVEST! Again huge.

At this point I think everyone was excited..... until the dollar figure required for the trial was announced.  I just want to say that I believe the amount is completely fair in terms of what the University needs. However, with what the trial will cost, plus the genotyping cost, plus the cost of semen.... Well, lets just say if the ASA foots the bill they would basically be spending what it costs for an office persons Salary for a year. Think about that!

So at this point I realized the ASA could not pay the bill. Mind you I am simply a breeder. I am not on the board, or am I up to date on the ASA financial status. I just knew the dollar figure was more than the Association could handle. Thus the nomination structure was established of $2000-20 units, $3,000 -30 units, $4,000-40 units.

The end goal of course is to put our best foot forward and ALL the bulls perform well.

Now my 2 cents. I had to sell this idea to the "tightest" guy on the planet. My partner and dad.
WHAT DO YOU SPEND ON ADVERTISING? Last year we spent more than $2,000. ( Shorthorn country Ad, picture and video cost, fitting fee, time) WOULDN'T THIS BE GREAT ADVERTISING? If your bull does well YES! But remember his progeny can do well in two areas 1. Carcass 2. Conversion/intake.........
To me its simply an investment! In my opinion as a purebred breeder if you aren't willing to spend $2,000 to promote a product you believe in...... well then you are in the wrong business. Its not a cost Its an INVESTMENT!

All that being said, these are mostly my opinions and there are some things I think not appropriate to discuss on here. Like the exact cost of the trial. That's not fair to the association, or the University. However, if you would like to call me I will gladly talk it over with you.

Thanks for reading.
Wes Wise
Wise Shorthorns
Vice-Chair Shorthorn/Plus Committee

The Big Show / Re: New Herdsire
« on: May 30, 2016, 02:48:42 PM »
I agree his frame and weight are close to ideal for me. What I like most about him is his front 1/3. His head, jaw, and chest are perfect as far as I'm concerned in regard to masculinity. His front 1/3 tells the story for his back 2/3. We need more Shorthorn Bulls that look like this, and less that look like...... Well we all know..........

The Big Show / Re: New Herdsire
« on: May 30, 2016, 01:34:15 PM »
Scot what frame score would you call him? Excellent bull.

The Big Show / Re: Commercial Shorthorn Bull
« on: May 15, 2016, 08:53:57 PM »
Josh could you post your kill data from the great state feed out? I would enjoy looking through it. Also, my lighter calves always have more vigor up to about 90 lbs. Bigger than that and they are always dead heads.

The Big Show / Re: Commercial Shorthorn Bull
« on: May 14, 2016, 01:09:56 PM »
Just my thoughts. I am not very impressed with Renegade's weaning weight, but I don't what kind of ground he was weaned off of. Here in Montana I would say renegade is built as most great range covering bulls are, and it has been my experience that you can take them good range bulls put them on irragation ground and they will transform into much different looking bull. As far as the other bull, I could not breed him to my cows and sleep easy at night. I would also say he looks like a irrigated ground (green pastures) and that if you turned him out on big country he would most likely melt. I don't know what your grazing conditions are like, but it seems both bulls would work depending on condition of the ground they are covering.

3 eagles I thought I would fill you in our production environment. We are in central Illinois and it is spring so green grass is pretty common. The bull pictured consumes Fescue grass year around with possibly 3 months of supplement. By supplement I mean he has to eat the fescue as hay instead of grazing. Do a little research on fescue it is a low protein, poor quality forage. My cows are maintained the same way. No corn, no silage, nothing but poor quality fescue grass and hay. We are blessed with adequate rain throughout most of the year so irrigation is unheard of around here. However, the year we brought him down was 2012 and the worst drought in my lifetime. Maybe 2 inches of rain June-Sept. Anyway he looked the same at the end of summer as he does now, only a 2 year old and not as massive of course. Also, I would be surprised to find anyone who makes their cows work as hard as Carl and Saskvalley, I think they would consider Kansas a vacation.

To everyone else on the BW issue. I sleep well at night and have no worries. His data reflects that. The climate does make a difference. My biggest thing is I am scared of chasing extreme low BW genetics for fear of creating small pelvic cows that can't have a calf on my their own. I like optimum.

Lastly we will creep feed from 4th of July to weaning in September. We retain ownership with our steers and have like the added pounds at weaning. Last year and we shipped our steers to JBS in Pennsylvania and had 100% high choice or better and all YG 2-3. There was a snafu with the data and I couldn't submit it to the ASA because they didn't give me Act REA, KPH, etc.

I know this bull isn't for everyone. I just think he is the answer for a lot of people. JTM your bull is the answer for many people also. My point was we need to promote the what we have, collect real data, and above all educate and be HONEST with our customers! I know I'm building a customer base because of those things. God Bless everyone.

The Big Show / Re: Commercial Shorthorn Bull
« on: May 14, 2016, 12:55:54 AM »
Josh I also have a question regarding your Fat and IMF comment. I was on a meat eval team in college and I know that external fat thickness and IMF have absolutely zero correlation.

Genetically, the use of external fat thickness alone explains very little in regard to marbling score, and therefore should not be used alone as a predictor of marbling ability because the phenotypic correlation between these two traits will be close to zero in most groups of cattle. The genetic correlation between external fat and marbling is higher, but still not large. Source Texas A&M

The Big Show / Re: Commercial Shorthorn Bull
« on: May 14, 2016, 12:33:40 AM »
I think it is important to point out that the carcass info you provided does not include any of the actual data collected this spring. Therefore I have attached that info. Additionally, 106 for a BW is to high, but his progeny have not reflected those BW figures, and he is in fact in the top 30% for BW and top 25% of the breed for CED. When we bought 33x we talked to anyone and everyone that had brought high BW cattle in from Canada, and more importantly to the Lehmans at Saskvalley. What they all said is true.... Calves come like snakes, have great vigor, and will not weigh what they weighed in Canada. I cut the high BW Bulls, but haven't found anyone yet that doesn't find our 85 lb BW average acceptable.

Josh people are buying what I am selling because my cattle meet their demand. I have yet to find a commercial cattleman that will accept your Bulls weaning and yearling performance. Not being mean just honest. Additionally, my cattle are better phenotypically, and that I believe is where Renegade falls short. Again just my honest opinion. You could argue that a combination of our Bulls is what the breed needs, but that bull doesn't exist. I will continue to raise the cattle that I like and can sell, and you do the same. No harm done, just good discussion. That is how me make progress!

I would like to point out the 503 heifer is a Saskvalley yesterday not a 33x.

The Big Show / Re: Commercial Shorthorn Bull
« on: May 13, 2016, 07:49:24 PM »
Saskvalley Imperative 33x. He is a Saskvalley Ramrod son.

The Big Show / Commercial Shorthorn Bull
« on: May 13, 2016, 06:48:25 PM »
People often discuss on this board that quality commercial Shorthorn genetics are not available anywhere. This guy is my definition of an ideal Shorthorn bull. Homo polled, backed by performance and carcass data, daughters in production, and above all form that follows function.

The Big Show / Re: Shorthorn sires
« on: February 12, 2016, 06:47:54 PM »
A couple of his sons also available.

The Big Show / Re: Shorthorn sires
« on: February 12, 2016, 06:46:02 PM »
Saskvalley Imperative 33X. Semen $25/unit no cert fee.

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