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61
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Last post by Hopster1000 on May 28, 2021, 01:18:26 PM »

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Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?
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I was under the impression that polling occured naturally in Shorthorns, and have witnessed it at first hand as my father had a polled calf from horned parents. So could happen in heritage shorthorns or modern shorthorns.
Polling is a mutation that happens at a higher rate in Shorthorns than other breeds.
I had heard that polled shorthorns were then used to introduce the polled gene to many other breeds as the incidence of polling in some breeds is very low.
62
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Last post by oakview on May 28, 2021, 09:05:23 AM »
Mark:  Thanks for making my point.  Next time I'll try to be more clear.  Breed standards?  Black Maines, Black Limmys, black Gelbvieh, black Chis with virtually no Chi breeding, black Chars, red Chars, black Simmys.  And we're worried about a black nose.  More power to Shorthorn Country if they try to emphasize the use of Shorthorns on commercial herds, whether they tried to do that with the cover in questions or not. 
63
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Last post by mark tenenbaum on May 27, 2021, 08:40:07 PM »
So that other breeds and or commercial breeders will try Shorthorns based upon the improvements made by the complimentary (mutual?) heterosis gained by the union of two breeds-Back to the purist endless loop-WHO ELSE OCCASIONALLY MAY USE A  SHORTHORN? non purists Who is the association looking for? (NON PURISTS) And why are breed comparisons RE the positive results  of using a Shorthorn on something else important to the association? up to debate-but sorta leaves this thread-hide color and a few other things past tense.Did the doner of the "Angus" beef-Fillet you paid $75 for have a black nose? Who nose-who cares? O0
64
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Last post by -XBAR- on May 27, 2021, 09:29:32 AM »
Has nothing to do with purity- it has to do with maintaining a breed standard.

Im not sure where the purity focus comes from. I dont own any native shorthorns. 


Surely you didnt think Charolais had black pigment?   Black and red are the only two pigment colors.   Even if both Char parents were Fullbloods, if calf has black nose it can only be registered as a 15/16ths. 

If it is a plus on the cover it makes the conversation even more relevant is why in the world would a purebred registry have a crossbred as the poster child.
65
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Last post by knabe on May 27, 2021, 08:54:18 AM »
Its already been proven with dna there are no pure cattle.

Thats not the issue.
66
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Last post by oakview on May 26, 2021, 04:20:13 PM »
I didn't know Char. were red pigmented.  I guess you learn something every day.  Speaking of "pure", how many "pure" Charolais are there around?  Are there any "pure" Herefords out there, black nose or not?  Weren't there some "pure" Herefords not long ago that threw rat tails?  I would say those animals had more serious problems than black noses.  If you look, at the WHR photo in question, the heifer in the background is clearly not a purebred Shorthorn, even if she has a white nose.  They offer several plusses each year in their sale and there's a real possibility the black nosed heifer in question is also a plus, making this discussion even more useless than it already is. 
67
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Last post by JPS on May 26, 2021, 03:12:42 PM »
You can look at coat color and say that it is a differentiation from other breeds.  I don't see any economic value to differentiating on a standard colored nose.  I have never heard a commercial cattleman sort the black noses out of a replacement heifer pen. I bet if we DNA tested all of the breeds, regardless of breed standards, we would find genetic diversity due to an unintended or intended breeding error.  DNA testing is the only way to prove an animal is "pure" in a legal sense.
68
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Last post by shortybreeder on May 26, 2021, 03:07:13 PM »
Idk thats its a myth as much as it is a breed standard.   What constitutes a "breed" if not a uniform or at least similar set of characteristics?

Why does every Shorthorn association in the world -except for the ASA- bar entry to black nose animals?

Why does every red pigment breed out there -red angus, Charolais, hereford, etc- bar entry to black nose animals?

Would seem to me that amongst cattle associations, theres a pretty unanimous consensus regarding this topic?
Shorthorn Beef association doesn't explicitly forbid it. They ban "colours and markings foreign to the breed" which leaves the black noses paired with roan/red/white hair coats up to interpretation.
Beef Shorthorn association Rules and Regs don't even address coat color, and neither does the Australian Shorthorn association
I couldn't find a website for the Performance Shorthorn Association to confirm what their registration requirements are
CSA does ban black noses (kind of, but based on above comments it doesn't seem to be enforced).
Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?
69
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Last post by -XBAR- on May 26, 2021, 12:47:35 PM »
Idk thats its a myth as much as it is a breed standard.   What constitutes a "breed" if not a uniform or at least similar set of characteristics?

Why does every Shorthorn association in the world -except for the ASA- bar entry to black nose animals?

Why does every red pigment breed out there -red angus, Charolais, hereford, etc- bar entry to black nose animals?

Would seem to me that amongst cattle associations, theres a pretty unanimous consensus regarding this topic?
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