Apalled by a breeders behavior after a show!!!

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twistedhshowstock

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So I was in Jackson all weekend for the Dixie Nationals, came home last night and was scrolling through facebook just catching up when I came across a post that a breeder I am facebook friends with posted to a very prominent judges that I am also friends with wall. 
This breeder raises and shows in one of the lesser competive breeds and has had a great deal of success, has a few currently in his showstring that have been doing really well so far this year and he had gone down and shown at the Open Show at San Antonio this weekend.  Apparantly the judge, who is very well known and I think a very upstanding judge, did not like this gentlemens cattle as much as some of the other judges because he apparantly put them very low in their classes.
This breeder went home and posted, publicly on the judges wall informing the judge of how well the cattle had done at previous shows and how low the judge had used them on this particular day.  He then went on to say that this judge obviously didnt know anything about evaluating show cattle and that he was obviously playing the politics game pretty heavily or he was just a complete idiot, but he preferred the latter.
This was a grown man, who has grown children that grew up showing.  I have struggled with if I would put his name in this post or not because a big part of me wants to publicly call him out on this absolutely childish, rude, and inappropriate behavior.  A grown man throwing a tantrum like this because he didnt win, and he did so publicly on facebook for everyone to see.  How do we expect the youth, that look up to and copy breeders like this who have succes, to have good sportsmanship when the succesful adults are publicly having tantrums like this because their cattle didnt win.  I think it was completely uncalled for, unacceptable and that he should be ashamed of himself and publicly appologize to the judge.
 

cowgirl864

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to twisted, i too was in Dixie all frozen weekend, we took the Grand champion shorthorn bull, i wish we could have met up, if you know the name of the judge of the shorthorn div i would (of Course) like to thank him for his comments
 

RyanChandler

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This breeder raises and shows in one of the lesser competive breeds and has had a great deal of success, has a few currently in his showstring that have been doing really well so far this year and he had gone down and shown at the Open Show at San Antonio this weekend.  Apparantly the judge, who is very well known and I think a very upstanding judge, did not like this gentlemens cattle as much as some of the other judges because he apparently put them very low in their classes.


Im not supporting his approach, but why would their be these discrepancies?  Unless their was just considerably stiffer competition at the Dixie Nationals than at SA (I cant imagine there was), then how could an animal thats been at the top, now be put in the bottom.  In equal competition, if one judge places an animal at the top and another places it towards the bottom, CLEARLY one of the judges doesn't have the credibility or skill to evaluate the cattle. It has to be this way.  There shouldn't be enough subjectiveness for this to happen.   I can understand switching a few here or there but w/o politics involved, the animals speak for themselves.

 

Okotoks

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Unless the breed in question has a very specific breed standard there is lots of room for variation in results. The animals in question may have been on feed longer at the first shows and the others were closer to being ready at this show. If the first shows results were going to hold for the entire show season why bother following the show circuit.
You really have to be prepared to accept the judges decision or you should probably just stay home!
 

JoeBnTN

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Chandler said:
Im not supporting his approach, but why would their be these discrepancies?  Unless their was just considerably stiffer competition at the Dixie Nationals than at SA (I cant imagine there was), then how could an animal thats been at the top, now be put in the bottom.  In equal competition, if one judge places an animal at the top and another places it towards the bottom, CLEARLY one of the judges doesn't have the credibility or skill to evaluate the cattle. It has to be this way.  There shouldn't be enough subjectiveness for this to happen.   I can understand switching a few here or there but w/o politics involved, the animals speak for themselves.
In looking at the show ring and how animals place from week to week there will always be differences. And while may seem unusual to go from the top end of a class of10-12 to the bottom in a week, it does happen.  Why?  Primarily the differences in opinion or priorities of the individuals judging the show.  This is particularly true today with the wide range of acceptable "types" and sizes of cattle being presented. A few years ago we had a young heifer calf that had been out several times and was undefeated in class and division.  She was a little bigger framed than some would have liked but everyone had used her for her overall quality.  One week however at a mid-level state fair, we encountered a well known judge (and good friend) who rolled her to 5th.  When he talked about her, he said his problem was that she was too big and too late maturing for him - nothing else, just that and the 4 heifers above her were indeed smaller framed and earlier maturing.  I had no problem with his decision -- he described the cattle accurately and held to what he believed - he picked them that way all day long.  For me it's important to listen to what they say about the animal more than where they placed it -- if they describe the accurately and are consistent in the placings, the fact they don't agree with everyone else is irrelevant.  
 

rackranch

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Sore losers and politics in open shows??? No way...

He just set a great example for the kiddos he sells cattle to...

Parents should be proud to have their children show his cattle...
 

thunderdownunder

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Chandler said:
Im not supporting his approach, but why would their be these discrepancies?  Unless their was just considerably stiffer competition at the Dixie Nationals than at SA (I cant imagine there was), then how could an animal thats been at the top, now be put in the bottom.  In equal competition, if one judge places an animal at the top and another places it towards the bottom, CLEARLY one of the judges doesn't have the credibility or skill to evaluate the cattle. It has to be this way.  There shouldn't be enough subjectiveness for this to happen.   I can understand switching a few here or there but w/o politics involved, the animals speak for themselves.

It's called judging, and it's VERY subjective.
 

OH Breeder

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JoeBnTN said:
Chandler said:
Im not supporting his approach, but why would their be these discrepancies?  Unless their was just considerably stiffer competition at the Dixie Nationals than at SA (I cant imagine there was), then how could an animal thats been at the top, now be put in the bottom.  In equal competition, if one judge places an animal at the top and another places it towards the bottom, CLEARLY one of the judges doesn't have the credibility or skill to evaluate the cattle. It has to be this way.  There shouldn't be enough subjectiveness for this to happen.   I can understand switching a few here or there but w/o politics involved, the animals speak for themselves.
In looking at the show ring and how animals place from week to week there will always be differences. And while may seem unusual to go from the top end of a class of10-12 to the bottom in a week, it does happen.  Why?  Primarily the differences in opinion or priorities of the individuals judging the show.  This is particularly true today with the wide range of acceptable "types" and sizes of cattle being presented. A few years ago we had a young heifer calf that had been out several times and was undefeated in class and division.  She was a little bigger framed than some would have liked but everyone had used her for her overall quality.  One week however at a mid-level state fair, we encountered a well known judge (and good friend) who rolled her to 5th.  When he talked about her, he said his problem was that she was too big and too late maturing for him - nothing else, just that and the 4 heifers above her were indeed smaller framed and earlier maturing.  I had no problem with his decision -- he described the cattle accurately and held to what he believed - he picked them that way all day long.  For me it's important to listen to what they say about the animal more than where they placed it -- if they describe the accurately and are consistent in the placings, the fact they don't agree with everyone else is irrelevant.  

We've show all over at alot of Jackpot shows. According to what the judge does or doesn't like I have had heifers personally go from 1,2,3, to 5, 6,7. Sometime with the more extreme types you can see a huge variance. One judge may like a massive boxy female another may feel they lack feminism or cowiness. It doesn't surprise me at all. I have always told the kids it doesn't matter how you place its that you presented your animal to the best of its abilities and had fun doing it. We aren't spending 10's of thousands of dollars on animals so we take what we get and for the most part like it.  ;)
 

WJ Farms

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Well I know exactly who he his talking about cause I am also FB friends with them........Ive seen the Judge that is being talked about judge many shows............And I have learned that he always does everything different!!! Whether you like it or not!!! And chances were the guy showing his Braunvieh wasnt gonna win anyways cause he had a Senior bull and this guy will use a calf about 98% of the time! I think it is disrespectful to call a Judge an idiot over his FB if you want to know what the deal was send him a private message or something dont try and be a bad ass and call this guy out cause you got your ass beat!!! GROW UP and take your butt whipping like a man!!

One yeah in Ft Worth we got left standing for the overall champion got beat by the calf champion and senior champion we clearly thought we had the better heifer.......Yeah we were mad and after the show we talked to this judge and he told us exactly why he didnt use her and what we could do to fix it..........ALWAYS REMEMBER ITS ONE MAN/LADY'S OPINION ON THAT DAY!!!!
 

twistedhshowstock

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Sorry my post was confusing this happened at ths SA show, not Dixie Nationals...I was just saying that after being at Dixie all week and not on computer I came home and found this.  As far as discrepencies in judging, yes it happens.  But there is a lot of room for variation in judging to.  Was the animal having an off day, did they eat as well as normal, had they been sick between shows and maybe fallen off, had they slipped or were they sore so not moving as good, and then there is the plain and simple truth that different judges like different things in cattle.  That isnt necessarily wrong, there is room for more than one type of cattle out there.  What I was saying about it being a lesser competitive breed, was that is not a breed that anyone thinks of when thinking of show cattle.  So yes there are some differences when evaluating them as opposed to evaluating a more clubby breed.  But the judge in this scenario is a very good judge and evaluates cattle very well, regardless of breed, he just flat knows cattle.  I am not trying to say the judge was necesarrily right, but I will say I have seen pics of the cattle in question and havent particularly been impressed with them personally.  
What I was saying was that I thought it was out of line for the guy to attack the judge like that in a manner that everyone could see.  It sets a bad example for the younger generations and he will be one of the ones looking back in a few years wondering why the kids have the attitudes that they do.
 

leanbeef

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The reasons the animals didn't place well don't matter... If somebody CHOOSES to show his / her cattle and CHOOSES to lead into a ring where they'll be evaluated by the judge, then they are agreeing to accept that judge's evaluation whether they like it or not. Nobody is forcing you to enter that show. Doesn't matter if the judge IS and "idiot"... If you can't handle hearing a judge's criticism, you should leave em at home.
 

shortii

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The way I look at this situation is if you cant handle getting beat every once in a while than get out of the show ring. Yes there are politics in the show ring at times, but live with it. Theirs politics in everything so deal with it and act your age.

And as far as the placings not changing much, that is not true. I have a friend that had a very nice heifer that won her class in Louisville and by the time Jr. Nationals came she was placed middle of her class. It wasn't because she looked bad, she was just not the type of heifer the judge wanted.   
 

ALTSIMMY 79

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Well said leanbeef ! Exactly !!! Pretty sad that a lot of showing revolves around daddys check book and what the daddy wants ! Its pathetic !!! Kids should learn how to be competitive and have FUN at the same time , isn't that what its all about ? 
 

knabe

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Why does winning matter so much?  I fhought the point of showing cattle was to show them. The placings are really secondary to marketing ones cattle.  Plenty of people seem to be able to market cattle without such drama. 
 

frostback

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leanbeef said:
The reasons the animals didn't place well don't matter... If somebody CHOOSES to show his / her cattle and CHOOSES to lead into a ring where they'll be evaluated by the judge, then they are agreeing to accept that judge's evaluation whether they like it or not. Nobody is forcing you to enter that show. Doesn't matter if the judge IS and "idiot"... If you can't handle hearing a judge's criticism, you should leave em at home.

Well said and I would jsut like to add " YOU PAID FOR THE GUYS OPINION" when you paid your entry fees.
 

RyanChandler

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thunderdownunder said:
Chandler said:
Im not supporting his approach, but why would their be these discrepancies?  Unless their was just considerably stiffer competition at the Dixie Nationals than at SA (I cant imagine there was), then how could an animal thats been at the top, now be put in the bottom.  In equal competition, if one judge places an animal at the top and another places it towards the bottom, CLEARLY one of the judges doesn't have the credibility or skill to evaluate the cattle. It has to be this way.  There shouldn't be enough subjectiveness for this to happen.   I can understand switching a few here or there but w/o politics involved, the animals speak for themselves.

It's called judging, and it's VERY subjective.
Hmm. So how is there a clear cut winner of say a judging contest, if all the questions and placings are subjective?
 

twistedhshowstock

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In a judging contest they have a committee place the animals, and they generally put together classes that fall into place pretty easily.  Generally there is an animal or pare that pretty much have to move to the top, and an animal or pair that pretty much have to move to the bottom.  The contest officials generally carefully select the classes to make this happen.  The committee goes through and evaluates the animals at the same time that the contestants do and collectively come up with what they feel the correct placings are.  They then decide "cuts" between the animals from 1-9 depending on how easily they feel the placings should have been.  For instance if the 1st place animal was hands down better than the rest they will put a cut of say 7 or 8 between 1st and 2nd, but if 2nd and 3rd really paired up easily and were very close in quality and really could have gone either way they are going to put a really small cut of like 1 or 2  between them.  There is then a formula to figure out how many points you lose for placing them wrong.  If you place them the same as the committee you get 50 points.  If all you do is switch a really close pair that only had a cut of 2 for instance you will get 48 points.  The truth is at most judging contest the scores are very close coming off the floor, most judging contest are not won or lost on how you place the animals, there are a lot of people that can go in there and place the animals in a judging contest because the classes generally break pretty easily.  Judging contest are generally won or lost in the reasons room based on how well you can talk the class and how well you saw the positives and negatives in each individual animal and your ability to justify your placings.
But judging in a contest is much different than judging in the show ring.  In a contest there are always only 4 animals in a class and those animals are selected and classes put together so that there are pretty obvious placings because of the differences in quality of the animals.  In the show ring setting often times there are many more animals in an individual class that are very close in quality.  The difference doesnt always come in quality of the animal but in type and design and where the quality comes from in animal, especisally in the open shows.  Thats where judges opinions come into play.  Some judges view certain characteristics as more important, while another judge may see another charecteristic as more important.  Most jusdges will agree that in breeding animals structural correctness is most important and thats what they look for first, beyond that some feel that feminity in a heifer is the 2nd most important trait, while some  feel that a really high volumed or more powerful heifer is more important.  Of course in the ideal situation you would have an animal that combines everything and has the total package, in reality that doesnt always happen so a judge has to decide what is more important to them.  For instance when judging steers I differ from a lot of judges in that when judging market class structural correctness moves down the list for me.  My opinion is that its a market class and we are judging those animals as if they were going to the kill line that day.  So I think product and being market ready are more important than how well one walks because in my opinion they have walked well enough to reach kill day and thats all I expect from a terminal animal.  While some judges are going to be just as critical of structural soundness in the market ring as they are in the breeding ring. Yes ideally I will have one that combines the product, market readiness and is structurally sound to win the show.  But if it comes down to an animal that is in ideal market condition and has more product but is a little stiffer on the move and maybe a little less attractive, and one that lacks the amount of product and correct finish but is stylish and moves soundly, I am going to go with the one with more product and correct finish because I feel that is more important in a market situation. Its not a matter of one being wrong and the other being right becaust they are all traits we look for when selecting animals, its a matter of the judges opinion on which  characteristics are more important in their opinion.  The other thing that I think is missing in this equation is I wasnt at San Antonio, I didnt see the other animals in the ring.  So I dont know how I would have placed them.  But what this breeder was saying was that since his bull was a National Champion last year and won Denver and Ft Worth then he should have also won San Antonio, what we dont know was how many animals were in the class and how close they were in quality.  They could have been very close and the other judges just thought he slightly edged out the others while this judge didnt share that opinion.  Also just because a calf was undoubtedly the best in the ring last year or last month, does not mean he will still be the best in the ring this year or this month.  Some cattle show excelently as calves and then fall apart as 2 yr olds and in reverse some dont show worth a darn as calves and come on strong their 2 yr old yr and are excellent.  All cattle mature and develop at different rates and in different ways which affects how they stand up in the ring each time they walk in.  And like I ssaid earlier there are many variables that can affect how good a calf looks from one show to the next.  I can look back at many times in my career in the show ring and say that the ones that I bought thinking were my best prospects often ended up being the ones that ended up falling apart and not doing worth a darn in the end, and many of the sleepers I bought came on and were my best finished animals.  But this wasnt meant as a discussion of did the judge place them right or wrong, most of us were not there to have our own opinion in this matter.  What I was saying was I was severely disapointed in how this grown man handled the situation.  But attacking the judges merrit publicly on facebook for everyone to see.  as we have said you can show the same 5 calves in the same class all yr long and at some point in time they all may win and they all may be dead last.  it all depends on a judges opinion and how well the calf  looks and shows on that particular day.
 

knabe

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twistedhshowstock said:
  I can look back at many times in my career in the show ring and say that the ones that I bought thinking were my best prospects often ended up being the ones that ended up falling apart and not doing worth a darn in the end

I think people sense this as a problem. I at least want to see more of this experience come into play that allows you to be more critical and make it cleare the closer placings while still giving courtesy to the lower placed animals by still commenting on animals so people can learn.  I want to HEAR the experience coming through in your reasons and those mistakes being minimized in your placings.  Say why things happen with age as minor faults now will magnify with age even though when young those traits might seem minimal and other traits outweigh them but are the source of magnifying the problem in the first place, ie structure and too much mass.  I like to see judges reasons match the best hat and boots in the crowd. I like to hear a judges life breeding experience come into play.  Yes you have to get through the classes,even sometimes with only one or two in a class, we understand if you don't say much at that time as you have another opportunity during the drive.
 
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