Quantcast Black Shorthorns

Sponsors



Author Topic: Black Shorthorns  (Read 20972 times)

Offline librarian

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Karma 48
    • View Profile
    • puregrassbeef.com
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2016, 09:13:36 AM »
Improve Shorthorn predictability for being easy calving, fast growing and high marbling and market share will take care of itself. It's not color that hurts us, to my mind, it's the perception of unpredictability. Black is perceived as predictable for those traits and Shorthorn is perceived as cow killer and slow grower.
The more roans that perform at calving time and in the feedlot, the faster the perception will change. Money talks. ( aj, add "Money Talks" to your other thread, please)
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline -XBAR-

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3454
  • Karma 170
  • SASKVALLEY ALAMO 8A
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2016, 11:30:00 AM »
Improve Shorthorn predictability for being easy calving, fast growing and high marbling and market share will take care of itself. It's not color that hurts us, to my mind, it's the perception of unpredictability. Black is perceived as predictable for those traits and Shorthorn is perceived as cow killer and slow grower.
The more roans that perform at calving time and in the feedlot, the faster the perception will change. Money talks. ( aj, add "Money Talks" to your other thread, please)

Exactly how I see it as well. 

JTM

  • Guest
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2016, 11:43:33 PM »
Improve Shorthorn predictability for being easy calving, fast growing and high marbling and market share will take care of itself. It's not color that hurts us, to my mind, it's the perception of unpredictability. Black is perceived as predictable for those traits and Shorthorn is perceived as cow killer and slow grower.
The more roans that perform at calving time and in the feedlot, the faster the perception will change. Money talks. ( aj, add "Money Talks" to your other thread, please)
Amen
Improve Shorthorn predictability for being easy calving, fast growing and high marbling and market share will take care of itself. It's not color that hurts us, to my mind, it's the perception of unpredictability. Black is perceived as predictable for those traits and Shorthorn is perceived as cow killer and slow grower.
The more roans that perform at calving time and in the feedlot, the faster the perception will change. Money talks. ( aj, add "Money Talks" to your other thread, please)

Exactly how I see it as well. 
Amen
Also, let's all remember that "black does not equal marbling anymore". We are on the verge of tipping things in a different direction. If we focus on the few simple words spoken above, maintain marbling and ribeye per 100 through breeding maternal/optimal Shorthorns, not terminal Shorthorns, we can give the cow herd in the United States what it needs.

Offline aj

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 6366
  • Karma 177
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2016, 05:22:18 PM »
Slight problem here. There is no Shorthorn bull identified as a marbling bull. No bull no accuracy.......nothing. How can the breed stay with the angus cattle when have not a clue of which Shorthorn bull to use to maintain or improve marbling. The Angus breed is line breeding for marbling and we can't identify one bull that is a improver and has accuracy.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

JTM

  • Guest
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2016, 11:43:54 PM »
Slight problem here. There is no Shorthorn bull identified as a marbling bull. No bull no accuracy.......nothing. How can the breed stay with the angus cattle when have not a clue of which Shorthorn bull to use to maintain or improve marbling. The Angus breed is line breeding for marbling and we can't identify one bull that is a improver and has accuracy.
Good point AJ. We can't identify one bull and we likely will not. All I know is that I have identified the bull I'm using to create a population of cows in my pastures... He wouldn't qualify in today's criteria of what a Shorthorn bull needs to be. He isn't terminal enough.

Offline -XBAR-

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3454
  • Karma 170
  • SASKVALLEY ALAMO 8A
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2016, 09:36:43 AM »
Slight problem here. There is no Shorthorn bull identified as a marbling bull. No bull no accuracy.......nothing. How can the breed stay with the angus cattle when have not a clue of which Shorthorn bull to use to maintain or improve marbling. The Angus breed is line breeding for marbling and we can't identify one bull that is a improver and has accuracy.
Good point AJ. We can't identify one bull and we likely will not. All I know is that I have identified the bull I'm using to create a population of cows in my pastures... He wouldn't qualify in today's criteria of what a Shorthorn bull needs to be. He isn't terminal enough.

What's your concern as to why "we likely will not" identify a bull?

Do you think the criteria for what a Shorthorn bull needs to be any different than the criteria for Angus?   Angus already have low birth weight, rapid steep growth curves, high marbling populations-- and in numbers.  If Shorthorns are to gain any market share, it's going to be done by developing lines that can compete w/ Angus in all 3, NOT JUST ONE, of these categories. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 10:58:26 AM by -XBAR- »

Online Medium Rare

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 427
  • Karma 17
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2016, 11:10:43 AM »
The posts above reminded me of the reaction Mr. Kaper described when discussing the marbling data situation with his table at the last meeting.

I guess this is the best information we have when looking for a sire to place into a contemporary group? Does anyone know how many scans and/or kills are needed to get a bull to the .5 acc minimum? Is a kill the equivalent of 7 or 8 scans?

Offline -XBAR-

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3454
  • Karma 170
  • SASKVALLEY ALAMO 8A
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2016, 11:37:04 AM »
That information there is worth very little.  The data from 4 of the 8 of those bulls came from the reportings from 1 herd.  One that specializes in EPD engineering at that.  I haven't looked at the numbers but I would wager that very few offspring, maybe a handful?, have been reported out of each of them.  It's more of a 'first mover advantage' type deal: Because essentially no carcass data has been reported on the majority of the population, those individual bulls who do have some carcass data reported, by default, become the trait leaders.  I may run a 12 minute mile but if I'm the only person entered in the race, then not only am I the fastest, but I'm the champ!

Does anyone know how many scans and/or kills are needed to get a bull to the .5 acc minimum? Is a kill the equivalent of 7 or 8 scans?

You can't look at like that.  Depending on the accuracy of the references used in your contemporary group, it might take 1 calf to get .5 or it might take 100.  It's a sliding scale: The higher the level of accuracy the reference sires in the contemporary group are, the less calves it will take.  Inversely, the lower the accuracy of the reference sire, the more calves it will take.

Offline aj

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 6366
  • Karma 177
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2016, 03:11:02 PM »
"Bring the jury in.......we're running behind. If you take stayability..........the deal Bolz tried to get started. It will take 20 years for the Shorthorns to catch up with the Red Angus on this data. I would also state......that if you look down the road say 50 years we could catch up.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline librarian

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Karma 48
    • View Profile
    • puregrassbeef.com
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2016, 10:03:23 PM »
Genetics work in mysterious ways. There is a 200 plus year history of synergy between Angus and Shorthorn for superior carcass quality. It's like a marbling heterosis.
Framing our relationship with Angus as competitive or a need to catch up is, to me, missing the point. We have something they don't. Together we are stronger. Identify our qualitative quantity and sell it as value added.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline Duncraggan

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
  • Karma 13
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2016, 01:39:23 PM »
That information there is worth very little.  The data from 4 of the 8 of those bulls came from the reportings from 1 herd.  One that specializes in EPD engineering at that.  I haven't looked at the numbers but I would wager that very few offspring, maybe a handful?, have been reported out of each of them.  It's more of a 'first mover advantage' type deal: Because essentially no carcass data has been reported on the majority of the population, those individual bulls who do have some carcass data reported, by default, become the trait leaders.  I may run a 12 minute mile but if I'm the only person entered in the race, then not only am I the fastest, but I'm the champ!

Does anyone know how many scans and/or kills are needed to get a bull to the .5 acc minimum? Is a kill the equivalent of 7 or 8 scans?

You can't look at like that.  Depending on the accuracy of the references used in your contemporary group, it might take 1 calf to get .5 or it might take 100.  It's a sliding scale: The higher the level of accuracy the reference sires in the contemporary group are, the less calves it will take.  Inversely, the lower the accuracy of the reference sire, the more calves it will take.
The glaring omission on the table is the number of progeny!

Offline aj

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 6366
  • Karma 177
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2020, 02:22:45 PM »
bump
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 6366
  • Karma 177
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2020, 02:33:05 PM »
I know that nothing upsets "Shorthorn Nation" more than discussing black black shorthorns. No one seams to mind the black Shorthorn plus heifers with genetics sporting lethal genetic defects. One thing that I have noticed is that Shorthorn people hate cattle that look like Angus or Red Angus cattle. They love roans......blue roans.......anything with a freaky color pattern. I have noticed that Kruse seems to be dabbling in black Shorthorn pluses. Lovings have been selling black half blood bulls for 6,000 dollars a piece at their sale. I have been praying that some breeder would would produce a 6807 son that one could get semen on........just to be able to play around with 6807's depth of body genetics.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 6366
  • Karma 177
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2020, 02:35:59 PM »
last I knew 6807 semen was 500$ a straw.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Gargan

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3032
  • Karma 38
    • View Profile
Re: Black Shorthorns
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2020, 10:56:05 AM »
last I knew 6807 semen was 500$ a straw.
You can find it for under $200 recently.  Hes getting back down where its affordable to ai the known fertile cows to him
Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence.  -Ronald reagan

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
29 Replies
10456 Views
Last post March 07, 2008, 12:23:04 PM
by Jill
33 Replies
20641 Views
Last post May 03, 2011, 08:32:33 PM
by WB ShowCattle
125 Replies
37195 Views
Last post August 15, 2013, 05:24:01 AM
by caledon101
13 Replies
6254 Views
Last post February 19, 2016, 03:10:03 PM
by Duncraggan
Black shorthorns

Started by aj « 1 2 ... 5 6 » The Big Show

88 Replies
19507 Views
Last post September 07, 2018, 02:07:17 PM
by aj

Powered by EzPortal

SteerPlanet Designed Websites

SteerPlanet Designed Websites

Steer Planet Classifieds & Auctions

Breeder Directory