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Offline Malinda

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2008, 02:22:28 PM »
First of all congratulations to everyone on how they did at the NAILE. That is the type of show where I feel you have accomplished something by having something good enough to even enter. Way to go SP members. You represented yourselves and your cattle well.

I have no bragging rights at all, as far as how my bull placed. I told the boys working for me that we would not even win a class and I was right. Phenom was in the second smallest class and the smallest division in the Shorthorn bull show. We managed to be second in a class of three. Remember when I posted under the topic about the affect John Sullivan was having on the Shorthorn breed? I said watch me go to Louisville and get my come upins. Well, I got it.

BUT.....I did make the point I set out to make.

Over the last several months there have been comments made here about Shorthorns being hard doers and just a show breed. You know...fur, fluff, fat. That is absolutely wrong. If you have hard doing Shorthorns that can only look good in the ring but can't make it in the real world it is NOT the Shorthorn BREED of cattle. It is a particular genetic line within that breed that needs work (or culled).

I purchased Phenom in March at the Ohio Beef Expo and he was already 9 months old, so I had no influence on how he was managed before that time. I set out to prove that you do not have to pour endless amounts of feed into cattle to get them to grow....if you have the right genetics to work with. Phenom was running a temp and off feed when I bought him. He had also just had his feed changed 100%, so it took me a couple of weeks to get him on feed and up to the amount I wanted him to eat.

Call me a liar but this is what he ate from March until Nov. He was started out on approx 9# of feed 2x daily with one flake of hay at night and gradually increased to 27# of  but kept on 1 flake of hay.  As a yearling (June 20) he weighed 1212#. Keep in mind that when he was a yearling I had only owned him just over 90 days. Phenom got hurt at the Tenn state fair (cut his foot between his hooves) and was off feed COMPLETELY from Tues morning until the next Tues morning. He was eating a little hay but no grain. It then took me another week to get him back on feed. This was early Sept. Including the Beef Expo, he was hauled and shown 4 times. The entire time he was in Louisville, the only time he ate his feed was Sat morning and he only drank a total of one bucket of water from Thurs until the show. I do not believe in pumping so he went to the ring dry. He crossed the scales at 1485#. I would liked to have had him at 1500 to 1550# but he would not cooperate down the home stretch.

With all that said he still had a good weight per day of age gain. I think they announced 2.8 or 2.9 ppd. Any time you have a 17 month old bull that has never eaten over 27# of grain at a time and still weigh 1485# at 17 months you can make money. Like I have said before, my fat cattle must finish before 13 1/2 months or it is time to cull the cow and shoot the bull.

I have a DZ/Tonic son here that has been on approx 20# of grain 2x daily and hay once. His yearling weight was 1380#. His ADG Ratio Rank was 3.94 ppd and his WPDA Ratio Rank was 3.77. So if a calf can gain 3.77 ppd FROM BIRTH and not get over 40# of grain I say that ain't bad.

The last 2 calves I butchered were born March 8 and March 13. They were butchered April 29 and weighed 1345# and 1390#.

IT IS NOT THE BREED AND THEY ARE NOT JUST SHOW CATTLE.

There was a Shorthorn bull in Louisville that the owner told me he was feeding him between 70 and 75# of feed a day. He was eating 25# of beet pulp every night. Now that doesn't get it in my book. I don't even know how one gets a bovine to eat that much. I sure couldn't do that....or want to. And I do not want any of his semen.

To convince me Shorthorns are hard doers and have no place in the real world you will have to bark up another tree. You will not find them in my fields.

Thanks for listening to my rantings.

Malinda

Offline oakview

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2008, 05:02:41 PM »
I thought your Phenom bull was one of the more stylish bulls in the show, though far from the fattest.  We showed a May bull at our State Fair that was division champion, but we turned him out with cows for 30 days after the fair and didn't want to take him to Louisville because I thought your bull would be too fat to get around!  Oh well, we'll both have some nice calves and the bulls would make a nice pair, almost exactly the same color.  Mine is out of a Trump X Dazzle Fool 8105 son.  I would guess you're kind of happy with those genetics, too.  On the serious side, sometimes I wonder how people can get cattle so fat at such a young age, but other times I'm glad I don't know.  Your bull is very good and I think will sire some excellent calves.  He could run with my cows any day.

Offline Malinda

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2008, 06:38:06 PM »
Oakview,

Thank you for the nice comments regarding Phenom.

I had to make an 'executive decision' when I purchased him. I actually had a DZ/Tonic bull that I was going to use as my 'guinea pig' bull to make my point about Shorthorns not being hard doers and only useful in the showring. He is the one I mentioned that had the 3.77 ppd gain on the 40# of feed. I decided to switch and use Phenom because of the stylish look you mentioned.

Your bull that is out of a Dazzle Fool 8105 x Trump son is very closely related to Phenom or the DZ/Tonic bull. My DZ cow (in my avatar) is out of CF Dazzle Fool 8105 and Trump. Her first natural calf is Eastern Sky Conductor 506 and his sire is Ar Su Lu Golden Spike. Phenom is a son of Conductor. That makes Phenom DZ's grandson. By the way, Conductor was gaining 4.1 pounds per day between 8 and 9 months of age. He was actually getting stiff acting so I put him on a crash diet...one of those deals where he thought his throat had been cut. He still weighed 1285# as a yearling. Spike has been used for years as an easy calving bull. Aren't those easy calving bulls supposed to throw calves that lack bone, muscle and the ability to grow rapidly? Conductor forgot to read that page!

I know that I really hurt Phenom's chances of excelling in the show ring but I just thought it was more important to prove that he could grow without being on full feed or being fed a lot of expensive feeds and/or additives. Proving my point meant more than a banner.

I also wonder how people can get young cattle so fat so fast. I also wonder why many of those bulls die at a young age. I know untimely things happen to all cattle at all ages, under all types of conditions. BUT why are there so many highly promoted bulls dieing so young? Someone I talked to a few years ago at Denver thought maybe the feed they were being pushed with was damaging their livers. I think soundness issues are a big factor. I still stand my ground that a calf's bones, joints, muscles, tendons, etc. are only as old as they are and are not intended to take all that extra weight at such a young age. I'll deny I ever said this....but I think some of them turn out to be duds and they die from lightening strikes standing inside the barn on a sunny day, right before the owner(s) call the insurance company.

I have ranted on long enough. Good luck with your bull and thanks again for the nice compliments.

Malinda

Offline aj

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2008, 07:39:06 PM »
In my opinion 8 out of 10 shorthorn cattle will not make it in the real world. My god 20 # of feed is a diet?  I am developing 4 yearling bulls on a cane bale and water. I know that showcattle are different but holy cow I don't even live on the same planet I guess. 80% of the show cattle will not work in the real world. Their bwts are to high they melt away to nothing as cows, they undergo no natural environment selection. You have cows being flushed raising a 100 offspring that have no environment selection pressure on them whatso ever. I hope you are right and the shorthorn breed will overtake the Angus but man "the emperor has on no clothes!".
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 08:27:20 AM by cowz »
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Offline NHR

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2008, 07:50:02 PM »
In my opinion 8 out of 10 shorthorn cattle will not make it in the real world. My god 20 # of feed is a diet? I am developing 4 yearling bulls on a cane bale and water. I know that showcattle are different but holy cow I don't even live on the same planet I guess. 80% of the show cattle will not work in the real world. Their bwts are to high they melt away to nothing as cows, they undergo no natural environment selection. You have cows being flushed raising a 100 offspring that have no environment selection pressure on them whatso ever. I hope you are right and the shorthorn breed will overtake the Angus but man "the emperor has on no clothes!".

My Shorthorns must be in that 20% that can work in the real world. The red heifer we had at Louisville eats 6 pounds of feed per day and the rest is hay. The Red and White heifer we had there eats 10 pounds of feed per day and the rest is hay. Our ex show heifers work in the pasture on just grass, mineral, and hay (we dont do silage in Texas) and they are doing just fine. We do creep feed our calves to get the weights up to sale.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 08:28:06 AM by cowz »
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The above statement is only from experiences and should not be taken for exact guidelines. Not responsible for spelling or grammar mistakes (I'm from Texas). Not responsible for any accidents or stupid stuff. By reading this you agree you have to much time on your hands.

Offline aj

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2008, 08:57:13 PM »
I apologize for my tone of voice. But...THE EMPHASIS ON THE WDA IN THE SHORTHORN BREED IN THE SHOWRING HAS KILLED THE BREED. We have selected cattle over the last 20 years based on wda. It has turned into a feeding contest. We are ruining bulls and females in the process. It it not about turning low quality roughage into protein anymore...it is about selecting cattle that gain like crazy in a insane feeding contest. We have turned our cattle into big framed cattle with no natural fleshing ability. I'm not knocking the cattle but it is what it is. We have huge bwt's  and no good doing cattle anymore. We start feeding baby calves whole corn as babies and we creep and we hot barn and cold barn them and put them on drugs and run them way to hard to play the darn weight per day of age that has turned into an artificial enviroment. Would someone at the top just throw the wda deal out of the showring for a year and see what happens.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Malinda

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2008, 09:06:29 PM »
Hey aj,

Thanks for your post. You got me to thinking and I had to redo my math.  I never weigh feed; all I do is count out x number of scoops (my scoop holds 3# of feed) when I start calves on feed and then I eyeball it. Rethinking Phenom's feed, it comes  out this way........Phenom gets fed 5 times on a 50# sack of feed. Guess that would come out to 10# per feeding and 20# per day. That any better? Sorry for the error.

I am not going to give you a long drawn out rebuttal. I will tell you I have fed out many more calves (that I have raised) than I have shown and they make me money. I have been using the same butcher for about 15 years now. He has told me that he never had a high opinion of Shorthorns until he started doing mine. He feels that the single best beef he has ever butchered was a 131/2 month old purebred, solid red Shorthorn heifer of mine. Back in the day, one of my regular beef customers was the meat inspector. So, you raise yours that you are happy with and I will raise mine. Just don't tell me how mine can't perform.

I am getting old and senile, so I read my post again. I just can't find the line where I typed: "I hope you are right and the shorthorn breed will overtake the Angus but man"the emperor has on no clothes"." Help me out and tell me where I typed that. And I have no idea what "the emperor has on no clothes" means. Please enlighten me; I don't get off the farm very often.

 I'm glad your cattle are real and do great things for you. That's what beef cattle are supposed to do. Good for you.

By the way, you never took me up on my offer to provide the shovel so you could go to Texas and dig up Nobody's Fool to get her DNA. The offer still stands.

Have a good one aj and keep on doing things that work for you. Thanks again for pointing out my math error. The correct numbers do sound a lot better.


Malinda

Offline aj

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2008, 09:19:12 PM »
I didn't mean to attack you..you have a fine program and a good commonsense approach. You make more sense than anyone on here. I'm glad you brought up the feeding issue and I applaud your approach.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Doc

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2008, 09:21:57 PM »
In my opinion 8 out of 10 shorthorn cattle will not make it in the real world. My god 20 # of feed is a diet?  I am developing 4 yearling bulls on a cane bale and water. I know that showcattle are different but holy cow I don't even live on the same planet I guess. 80% of the show cattle will not work in the real world. Their bwts are to high they melt away to nothing as cows, they undergo no natural environment selection. You have cows being flushed raising a 100 offspring that have no environment selection pressure on them whatso ever. I hope you are right and the shorthorn breed will overtake the Angus but man "the emperor has on no clothes!".

 I'm glad to see that this is just your opinion, because I think you're way off on the 8 out of 10. 20 lbs a day on bull that size is not a lot of feed. I'm glad that you can develop bulls on cane bale(whatever that is) & if you can grow bulls out on that & sell them for a profit , then more power to you. But just because someone feeds their bull a reasonable amount of grain, doesn't mean that their bull can't survive in the pasture once they're done showing them.
 I didn't know that the Shorthorn breed was trying to overtake the Angus breed.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 08:29:21 AM by cowz »
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Offline aj

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2008, 09:25:41 PM »
I stand corrected.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Malinda

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2008, 09:55:20 PM »
aj,

Thanks for the apology, but no apology necessary. You are adamant about your program and your cattle. That is a good thing. I am too.

I think we may be saying the same thing, just going about it in a different way.

I was raised with the theory that a cow should maintain herself on pasture in the summer and a half a bale of hay (back in the square bale day) a day in the winter. They had a 50# block of salt and a 50# TM block in front of them all the time, were vaccinated and expected to breed easily, calve easily, milk, raise a big calf, breed back and have a short calving interval, not need to be treated for pinkeye, sore feet or anything else. The mineral program has changed since I was a kid but my selection criteria has not. I feel there are cattle out there that should be culled and out of the gene pool. But I have no control over other people's cattle. I have enough trouble taking care of my own business.

You have mentioned big birth weight several times. I can HONESTLY say I have NEVER had a cow have a c-section. Now that I have said that, I have just opened myself up for a run of c-sections. I have never bred a cow with the thought in mind of getting a show calf. Go ahead everyone and call me a liar but those of you that know me know that I talk about calving ease, performance and soundness but don't talk about raising that next great one. You just can't get tunnel vision.

Many of you have seen the ad I ran in the August Shorthorn Country. What did I stress? Calving ease. We do need to work on calving ease with Shorthorns. And aj, if we (everyone, not you) stop worrying about raising that next great one and work on other things we can get rid of the calving ease issue.

I do not put a lot of stock in EPD's. They are numbers and anyone can manipulate numbers. I own a set of scales and make my decisions based on those.  But I do put a lot of emphasis on how much MY cattle are gaining per day. It is afterall the beef business. All it boils down to is that rate of gain. Very few beef cattle end up on a halter. They are raised to be eaten or produce the ones we eat.

aj, i have enjoyed our discussion but need my rest. I would love to sit down one on one and talk beef cattle with you. You might be surprised how much we would agree on.

Have a good evening.

Malinda

Offline OH Breeder

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2008, 10:54:46 PM »
I have had the opportunity to see Malinda operation and I was impressed. I think there is one thing that I took away from our afternoon of conversation. It is really all about doing what works for you and your operation. I really respect what Malinda has done with her operation and hope that I can in some ways emulate it with even half of the success.
Life is too short....don't sweat the small stuff.

Offline cowz

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Re: brag on yourself about NAILE placing!
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2008, 08:54:58 AM »
Like I said before, I am usually down in the barn, but I got to watch the entire Shorty show from start to finish.   The political tone started with the senior bull classes and reached a crecendo by the end of the day.  (Sometimes old college livestock coaches butter their bread with the places that feed their teams a steak dinner)  Nuff said, harumph!

Malinda's bull was a pleasant change from the norm.  Goose fronted, clean lines and SOUND!   Was he the biggest, no, smallest, no.  I think he could have stood the test of a larger class.  Overall, I was impressed.  Great Job Malinda.

Stumpy, I also think you got cheesed.  I liked the Gus bull and thought he should have been placed better than he did.

Somewhere in all this insanity, we need to start using moderate, sound and easy fleshing seedstock.   I worry that the Shorthorn breed is headed the same way the Charolais breed did 10-15 years ago.  By this I mean, bigger becomes massive, more bone becomes COARSEness, BW's get out of hand.....and before you know it nobody wants to use the breed because they are scared to calve them.   I hope I never have to feed 70+ pounds of feed a day.

Keep up the hard work guys and someday common sense may prevail.
Entrepreneurs and their small enterprises are responsible for almost all the economic growth in the United States. ~ Ronald Reagan

 

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