Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: coyote on January 31, 2019, 08:01:06 PM

Title: Bulls Heads
Post by: coyote on January 31, 2019, 08:01:06 PM
I heard it from a few old breeders that when they were selecting bulls all they would look at is his head. I don't know if it is the same now a days as just looking at EPD's or not.
Here are a couple bulls we raised with heads I like.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: Duncraggan on January 31, 2019, 10:39:21 PM
These are two snorters! Breeding?
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: -XBAR- on January 31, 2019, 11:00:47 PM
Saw them on Facebook today and saved pics of both.  Roan is especially a hoss.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on February 01, 2019, 05:36:49 AM
Maybe the old lessons on cattle breeding for look a masculine head on bulls can again return.
My first view is for lenght and meat cover on back.
Numbers and heads are wast time if the are no meat on the back, deep ribes and long loin!
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: coyote on February 01, 2019, 06:30:38 AM
Quote
These are two snorters! Breeding?
Quote
Red bull is;
MURIDALE RAW HIDE 6E
Sire: MURIDALE IRON MAN 4X
MGS: Alta Cedar Ultimate 130K


Roan bull is;
[/size]MURIDALE BUENO 61E[/color][/size]Sire: HATFIELD GOVERNOR 17XMGS: Saskvalley Bonanza 219M[/color]
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: cowboy_nyk on February 01, 2019, 08:00:13 AM
I'm a big believer of selecting for head shape.  Wide muzzle, hooded eye, nice poll. No long heads, no pug heads.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: Duncraggan on February 01, 2019, 09:27:22 AM
Like the hindquarter shape and bulging loin on the 6E bull. Brilliant! Both are excellent, deep bulls, well done! Photographs are amazingly even, good photographer and preparation.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 02, 2019, 02:48:02 PM
How bout this one? Heads a little long due to a lotta  old breeding-but his muzzel is made for feed or nutrient conversion  O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mbigelow on February 02, 2019, 11:46:51 PM
Coyote those are some nice looking bulls.  Cowboy I like the one on the top best.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: -XBAR- on February 03, 2019, 11:57:53 AM
How bout this one? Heads a little long due to a lotta  old breeding-but his muzzel is made for feed or nutrient conversion  O0

All these perfect examples of the type of head you want on beef cattle and you go and ruin in with that long headed mongrel.  Heck hes got about 4 different breeds in him up close.   (lol) Do you really not see the difference, type wise?? 
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 03, 2019, 12:38:13 PM
Why hes just my type-I only see native and older shorthorn maybe a shot of waygu - why his muzzel is almost as big as yours LOL O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 11:31:21 AM
Last but not least O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 03:32:18 PM
Last but not least O0


I get times change and trends come and go but holy moly that bull is horrible to me.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 03:58:52 PM
By virtue of the original and currant Marc studies-results and the pedigrees of the majority of performance cattle in the US and some other countries-Enticer is by far the most influential-far reaching Shorthorn bull in the US history of the breed-Wish I had a picture of Goldwalk at a more mature age-he was as stout as alot of the Canadian bulls listed today. As far as being in the background Millbrooke Marc IV, and a couple others deserve a showing too- BUT YEATHUR-Enticer WAS THE HEAD MAN O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 05:25:56 PM
By virtue of the original and currant Marc studies-results and the pedigrees of the majority of performance cattle in the US and some other countries-Enticer is by far the most influential-far reaching Shorthorn bull in the US history of the breed-Wish I had a picture of Goldwalk at a more mature age-he was as stout as alot of the Canadian bulls listed today. As far as being in the background Millbrooke Marc IV, and a couple others deserve a showing too- BUT YEATHUR-Enticer WAS THE HEAD MAN O0

He looks like a giant Wagyu. He must have put the grow in them. With those legs Id wager there was some Chi lurking in the woodpile.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 06:14:47 PM
MAINE-RODEO WAS THE CHI-The combo was the deal back in the day O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: Medium Rare on February 04, 2019, 09:21:11 PM
.... but is the swirl in the right spot?

Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 04, 2019, 09:30:07 PM
.... but is the swirl in the right spot?

Nice deep bull. Whatcha got there? The swirl is tremendous.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: Boreal on February 04, 2019, 09:51:24 PM
Galloway bulls typically have good heads.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: Medium Rare on February 04, 2019, 09:53:32 PM
.... but is the swirl in the right spot?

Nice deep bull. Whatcha got there? The swirl is tremendous.

He's a Bonanza son. Now a year older than the pic with his first daughters calving soon. Threw a couple 1/2 sib to 1/2 sib matings in his daughters first calf crop to get the party started as quickly as possible so, we'll see how it shakes out.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: knabe on February 04, 2019, 10:42:21 PM
Enticer is by far the most influential-far reaching Shorthorn bull in the US history of the breed


by what criteria
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2019, 11:11:58 PM
By virtue of the criteria in the begining of quoted post not quoted in this one-just a sentance or 2 An abbreviation of 30 years plus or minus-There are more performance oriented cattle that go back to him than anything in the Shorthorn breed in the US as stated-with some overflow through him and various decendent  sires to other countries-You might start with Byland,Moores, Dedmon, Waukaru and even UB Shorthorns up to Canada to:Shadybrook, Crooked post-JIT and a bunch of sires eminating from all these and more Just follow the Daisy chains in fact BUT WAIT-you not only have the "years ago progeny", THERES MORE.  A descendent that was National Champion bull in Denver 3-4 years ago called BISS Element from a Canadian great-or Grandson O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: knabe on February 04, 2019, 11:44:01 PM
seems his type and performance from that type is not relevant?
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 05, 2019, 08:30:22 AM
That or a bad picture O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: knabe on February 05, 2019, 08:32:53 AM
That or a bad picture O0


for a posed a clipped bull, i seem to remember a bad picture epd.


maybe the ASA can donate 20 units of semen to the illinois shorthorn sire trial?
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 05, 2019, 09:54:41 AM
There probably isnt any-Go to Enticer on Short.org-wade through progeny-Look up Byland Goldwalk-wade through progeny-follow that To Waukaru after Gold Dust, Gold Member,Arsulu Vann yatta yatta-wade through progeny-A week or so from now when you get done-if we can ever find out what bulls were used in this ILL study used-wade through pedigrees But-given the other  bulls that made an impact on the breed like divedend rodeo and certainly Millbrooke Mark IV and G-9) who also had long heads-I have surmised through this intense academic task-That Shorthorn bulls with long heads rule LOL O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 05, 2019, 07:38:05 PM
That or a bad picture O0


for a posed a clipped bull, i seem to remember a bad picture epd.


maybe the ASA can donate 20 units of semen to the illinois shorthorn sire trial?/// Speaking of which-heres a list of the bulls used  https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Sire-Test-Update-Matt-April-2018.pdf      Not looking at extended pedigrees-a kneejerk count-has six of the fourteen sires going back to him-If i took the time-there would probably be more O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: justintime on February 06, 2019, 07:35:21 AM
I did not ever use Enticer, as I did not like the way his offspring sloped off from hooks to pins. I was told by very good authority ( by a man who was involved in raising Enticer) that his dam was the Reserve National Champion Maine female in the US a few years before. This was a trait pretty common in Maine cattle in that era, so I am tending to agree with what he told me. Unfortunately, this type of thing happened in many breeds in that day, as it was before DNA testing. The only tool available to verify purity was blood typing, and it was far from being totally accurate. I remember talking with the head of the blood typing lab at Ohio State, ar the Graham Land and Cattle dispersal in Minnesota, and he confirming that most breeds were infusing cattle from other breeds. He said that some Milking Shorthorn blood types could slip through the blood tuping tests in Angus and that they had found 7 full blood Maine bulls that blood typed as purebred Shorthorns. I also remember getting a phone call from a well known Angus breeder in that era, asking me if I knew where I could find semen from McKee's Matchless Dairyman, a red Milking Shorthorn bull. This guy told me that this bull sired solid black calves when used on Angus cows and they also blood typed as purebred Angus. This wasn't just a Shorthorn thing. I believe the advancements in the past few years, with DNA testing, have cleaned up a lot of crap that was happening.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 06, 2019, 07:50:19 AM
Enticer passed that roll along for a generation or 2 with Deertrail Awesome being an example-along Pancho and Cisco etc. Goldwalk had some of that-along with his other trait-HIGH BWS-But for whatever reasons-alot of that got moderated-GFS Creole and his sire were the first 2 I remember-And Creole and the many Gold Versions are still very prominent as far as functional cattle that would be considered performance and ez calvers-There have been a ton of them. O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: Medium Rare on February 06, 2019, 07:55:00 AM
Just had a granddaughter of Enticer calve a few hours ago. For being a heifer she is mothering up well and has a nice udder. I would definitely be ok with removing 3" of leg and putting a better looking head on her.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: justintime on February 06, 2019, 08:36:00 AM
I also believe you can tell so much from a bull's head and also from a female's head. As a long time sales manager used to tell me "just send me a picture of your sale animals heads, and I will tell you which ones are going to be in the sale". I used to think he was just being smart, but now I think he actually was smart. As with most things, I don't think it is best to have extremes in anything in the head but you definitely want some width between the eyes but not to an excessive amount. Wider skulls can lead to calving problems especially when used on heifers. I also think in a bull's head, you want to see masculinity and in a female's head, you want to see femininity. In other words, a female's head should resemble one of the cheerleaders on the sidelines, rather than one of the defensive guards.
Another trait I used to see old timers mention was the circumference of the bull's tail. One of my mentors when growing up, used to tell me that I should never use a bull with a small circumference of his tail. He used to say that when you put you hand around the tail about half way up from the top of the switch, your should be able to just make your fingers touch each other. I always thought that there was a far bit of leeway in this as some guys have monster sized mitts and some don't. This man told me that the bulls with smaller circumference tails were not as hardy as those with bigger circumference tails. I think there is something to this, as the easiest fleshing cattle always seem to have thicker tails.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: cowboy_nyk on February 06, 2019, 11:22:54 AM
Back to the topic of heads, here's a good example of a day old calf that has the right kind of head in my opinion.  Muzzle is almost as wide as his forehead.  Maybe a bit more set to his eyes (more hooded so you can't see them from head on) would be ideal. His mother isn't ideal in that way and accordingly she has had pinkeye in the past.  Pretty direct correlation around here.  If I can see their eyeballs from the front, they will get pinkeye in their lifetime.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 06, 2019, 05:13:41 PM
Heres a long yearling on grass-NO : her left rear leg didnt start like that-theres a metal rod in it-She still managed to come back from an extremely bad calfhood. She was injured through most of it. Although I dont think her head had alot to do with how she developed along in spite of it all that O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 06, 2019, 05:21:09 PM
Heres a long yearling on grass-NO : her left rear leg didnt start like that-theres a metal rod in it-She still managed to come back from an extremely bad calfhood. She was injured through most of it. Although I dont think her head had alot to do with how she developed along in spite of it all that O0

I like that head on her for sure.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: E6 Durhams on February 06, 2019, 05:21:42 PM
Back to the topic of heads, here's a good example of a day old calf that has the right kind of head in my opinion.  Muzzle is almost as wide as his forehead.  Maybe a bit more set to his eyes (more hooded so you can't see them from head on) would be ideal. His mother isn't ideal in that way and accordingly she has had pinkeye in the past.  Pretty direct correlation around here.  If I can see their eyeballs from the front, they will get pinkeye in their lifetime.

Love your cattle. Those Resource cattle you have are excellent
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: cowboy_nyk on February 07, 2019, 07:37:09 AM
Heres a long yearling on grass-NO : her left rear leg didnt start like that-theres a metal rod in it-She still managed to come back from an extremely bad calfhood. She was injured through most of it. Although I dont think her head had alot to do with how she developed along in spite of it all that O0

Agreed Mark that's a nice headed heifer, broken leg or not haha. We need an "injury prone" EPD I think  (pop)
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 07, 2019, 07:48:26 AM
She sure does-Her first calf X Angus was one of the heaviest out of 40 or so Then she went down to nothing after weaning-afraid wed lose her. Put a magnet in her, and she finally came back strong again-Her nick name is Calamity O0
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on February 07, 2019, 09:33:27 AM
I did not ever use Enticer, as I did not like the way his offspring sloped off from hooks to pins. I was told by very good authority ( by a man who was involved in raising Enticer) that his dam was the Reserve National Champion Maine female in the US a few years before. This was a trait pretty common in Maine cattle in that era, so I am tending to agree with what he told me. Unfortunately, this type of thing happened in many breeds in that day, as it was before DNA testing. The only tool available to verify purity was blood typing, and it was far from being totally accurate. I remember talking with the head of the blood typing lab at Ohio State, ar the Graham Land and Cattle dispersal in Minnesota, and he confirming that most breeds were infusing cattle from other breeds. He said that some Milking Shorthorn blood types could slip through the blood tuping tests in Angus and that they had found 7 full blood Maine bulls that blood typed as purebred Shorthorns. I also remember getting a phone call from a well known Angus breeder in that era, asking me if I knew where I could find semen from McKee's Matchless Dairyman, a red Milking Shorthorn bull. This guy told me that this bull sired solid black calves when used on Angus cows and they also blood typed as purebred Angus. This wasn't just a Shorthorn thing. I believe the advancements in the past few years, with DNA testing, have cleaned up a lot of crap that was happening.


Great. A clear answer. Good!
Wish more info like that, on both road sides (breeds).
Sure not all are like to open the black secrets!
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: aj on February 07, 2019, 10:46:33 AM
A hair off topic but....Cross Diamond Cattle Co. of Nebraska measures baby calves heads in order to help judge calving ease. Readings had varied from 51.5-42 cm.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: cowboy_nyk on February 07, 2019, 11:54:23 AM
A hair off topic but....Cross Diamond Cattle Co. of Nebraska measures baby calves heads in order to help judge calving ease. Readings had varied from 51.5-42 cm.
Interesting. I suppose that is not much different than using the tape measure for birth weights.  Head type and size usually follows pretty consistently with body type. Long narrow head -> tall narrow animal, tiny head -> tiny calf, short stout head-> short stout calf.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: aj on February 07, 2019, 12:55:43 PM
The head deal may be more of deal for a first calf heifer calving I don't know. Shoulder width would be hard to measure. It would be fascinating for someone to have a study........measure heads, hooves, actual weights, and calving ease. And then correlate all comparisons. Then.....what does work best. Measuring a head is usually easier than hoisting the damn calf up.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: justintime on February 08, 2019, 06:58:26 AM
The head deal may be more of deal for a first calf heifer calving I don't know. Shoulder width would be hard to measure. It would be fascinating for someone to have a study........measure heads, hooves, actual weights, and calving ease. And then correlate all comparisons. Then.....what does work best. Measuring a head is usually easier than hoisting the damn calf up.

There has been some research done on this and Jan Bonsma from South Africa did quite a bit of measurements of the length and width of heads and how it should correlate with different measurements of cattle. I heard Bonsma speak once, probably back in the late 60s and it was fascinating how he said the length and width of the animals heads could tell you. I am still trying to find some of his speeches and I would think some of this should be on the internet someplace. Seems like everything else in the world is on the net someplace. I will keep looking. In the meantime, I have attached a picture of a bull's head I have always liked. This is Saskvalley Pioneer 126P who was a herd sire for us several years ago. I am still using him some each year.
Title: Re: Bulls Heads
Post by: cowboy_nyk on February 08, 2019, 08:29:44 AM
Came across a couple bull pics.  First one is pretty nice headed for a thickness and power type of bull. Certainly not a calving ease type.  Second picture is starting to get to that "puggy" stage in my opinion.  Notice the raised brows and curved nose.  To me those cattle lack some growth and females tend to be less fertile with those heads, especially i the more extreme cases.