Clubby bulls and C Sections

Everyone says that if you are gonna breed your cows to clubby bulls (Monoply, Walks Alones and Believe in Mes) that you might as well plan on calling the vet out for a C section. I can see this being true in certain circumstances but i have no experience with it. I have sim angus cows with no clubby in them and i was wondering what you think would happen. I understand if you breed a hfr, young cow, or small framed cow for that matter to a bull such as these with alot of hip and stoutness to them you may run into some problems... what are your experiences

I dont have any clubby genetics in my cowherd either and dont breed a lot of cows clubby but I have never had to cut one out.  I have had hard pulls out of 7-9 year old cows that are big pelvised cows that have never had any calving trouble bred to mainstream beef bulls.  I would recommend extreme caution when breeding to clubby bulls.  And understand that there are some clubby bulls that are just fine for calving, Johnny Walker Red is one of em.  Good Luck!

I live in Tx and calve in the fall.  Have pb Angus, Sim-ang, and clubby cows.  I've used the bulls you mentioned + plenty of others.  AI around 150 total per year for past 7-8 yrs.  Never had a c section and havent pulled a calf from a mature cow in 4-5 years.

One c-section here since I've been raising crossbred club calves (that'd be since 1989) - a first calf heifer bred to a lbw Angus bull that just didn't dilate (calf weighed 70#, btw).  I've calved cows to more AI bulls than I can remember, even Full Throttle.  I do try to be careful about matings, and how we feed the cows, especially in the last trimester.  This year all of our mature cows were bred to Monopoly sons (either our own Monopoly son or Monopoly Money).  I don't believe we had a calf over 90#.

chambero said:

I live in Tx and calve in the fall.  Have pb Angus, Sim-ang, and clubby cows.  I've used the bulls you mentioned + plenty of others.  AI around 150 total per year for past 7-8 yrs.  Never had a c section and havent pulled a calf from a mature cow in 4-5 years.

Click to expand...

Those of us who have more extreme winter temperatures I think have larger birth weights. Lots of research on cold and large birth weights.
IE look at Canadians. They routinely have larger bw's yes?

I think you have to take in to account or at least we do the cows history of calving and then plan your mating accordingly. Purebred females can have large birth weights as well.

key PLAN.

Just a thought on the correlation between colder weather and birth weights:  Could it have something to do with management/feeding during the last trimester?  We usually are on corn stalks until mid-January, then bring the cows in to calve closer to the house.  When we move them in we start feeding hay and supplement.  Could this be a reason why the higher birth weights when its colder?  Just a thought, not saying its the reason, but I know when we were calving out a lot of commercial cows, the worst calving season we had started with 3 feet of snow in mid-November, so we had to feed cows all winter.  I think having to feed and not getting as much exercise really added to our calving issues.

Not quite Canada but the red river valley isn't noted for our balmy warm winters. We have used clubby genetics for 8 years now and I have never pulled a normal presentation calf yet. We don't keep daughters out of clubby bulls......they just don't work in the real world.

What bulls have you had the best luck calving with. Im particularly interested in Walks Alone and Monoply

Have had no problems with either Walks Alone or Monopoly....remember, Monopoly is half Angus if that makes you feel better about his potential calving ease.

The theory behind the larger birth weights when it is colder is that to keep warm, the cow's body
pumps blood through the core of their body faster in an attempt to keep warm; hence, there is more blood pumped through the placenta...giving more nutrients to the calf; that is why the larger birth weights then.

Monopoly is almost fool proof ,but have heard of heavy birth weight Charolais triggering .some big calves.... My experience had no Monopoly's with calving trouble on mostly Angus & Charolais cows ......Also most of my Monopoly cattle
could use more power ,but are easy calving ....Walk Alone  definitely has more power and substance ,no problems with ANGUS cows ,and very few with my Charolais cows ....But had a part Hoodoo  cow with more power and substance
that I flushed and these calves were week late, all came in one after noon ,one cecerian,3 back ward and 2 normal ,no cows hurt and by far as a group my best sellling calves .....Management is the key and how much power you want to put up ,
the more power proably makes the high selling calves ....As far as winter I do think cold can increase birth size , cut back on protein, I  don't use alalfa before calving ,good prarie hay will have more energy and put your cow in better shape to calve and raise calf ...  IMO

Monopoly is also half Heatwave if that makes you concerned about calving ease.....


JWW

I have noticed even with spring calving cows that there is a 10 to 15 pound difference in birth weights between Texas and Nebraska and other points north that is probably related to the colder climate.  When you change those cows to fall calving as Chambero points out you get even smaller and eariler calves.  Anyway, that has been my experience.  I have never had to pull a calf out of Monopoly or Walks Alone.  The trick down here is keeping those hairy babies alive in August when it is 105!

Does the color of the calf in your opinion help in those 105 days calving ...Possum Trot Ranch

Color doesn't seem to matter. I have lost black calves to the heat. I had a white Uno Mas last year that was super hairy and almost didn't make it.  I kept him under the fan and mister for two weeks and he came around.  I lost a really good red , Walks Alone thiis past August.  He was extra hairy.  It seems like it he problem is more related to the density of the hair than the color.  I haven't tested to find out but I suspect the problem calves are all TH carriers.  I plan to add more shade and misters to the calving lot for next year.  Also, several have suggested shaving the hairy calves so I will try that as well.

Shaving them does work wonders.

I know of some Rocky Balboas that had to be C-sectioned, the cows were from clubby genetics. Based off of what I read in these post it seems the cow may play a bigger role than the bull when it comes clubby bulls and c-sections.

Shaved all calves in august. I agree with possum trot ranch about size. Usually smaller. Only had one c section in 10 years. Was a monopoly heifer tring to have a purebred angus calf. Other than that usually dont have very many problems in oklahoma. Except heat and water.

I think its the way cows are FED in colder climates that is responsible for dystocia moreso than the cold weather itself.  I just had a cow calve that was from Jungles that she herself had a 113 lb bw.  I watched her like a hawk knowing I was in for a pull.  Her bull calf weighed 68 lbs last week.  She hasn't seen a drop of feed since last march. 

Sly said:

Shaved all calves in august. I agree with possum trot ranch about size. Usually smaller. Only had one c section in 10 years. Was a monopoly heifer tring to have a purebred angus calf. Other than that usually dont have very many problems in oklahoma. Except heat and water.

Click to expand...

Sly, was that Monopoly a second calf heifer or mature cow?  The reason I ask is that I have a Monopoly heifer that I will breed soon for her second calf and I would like to use Yellow Jacket but if they are a little harder calving I may go with something different.

You know it also has a lot to do with how much you feed them in their last trimester I know alot of people dont feed there older cows but it dont have an affect on them also and during droughts and stuff when we feed a lot of grain and hay just so we can keep good condition on them it also effects the BW too....