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Offline librarian

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2015, 07:31:34 AM »
Okotoks, I stand corrected. I wish the picture showed her udder. I'd drive to Canada just to look at that catalog! I can't find a picture of Bogan Yalta, but that's really interesting that Remittal was outcrossing line bred Leader 21 cattle to Australian bulls.

Beebe- I actually have some Royal Oak. I have been so tempted to put it on the best black Galloways I can find to lay the foundation for a blue grey group, but my conscience won't let me use it for a cross. If I used it on the daughters of my own bull I might get a White Cloud type result. My bull throws a lot of white, but similar type.

Should we just go to Australia for marbling?
 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 07:32:58 AM by librarian »
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Offline librarian

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2015, 07:35:59 AM »
Had to save it, then take a screenshot. Learned that on SP!
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Offline Okotoks

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2015, 08:35:09 AM »
Okotoks, I stand corrected. I wish the picture showed her udder. I'd drive to Canada just to look at that catalog! I can't find a picture of Bogan Yalta, but that's really interesting that Remittal was outcrossing line bred Leader 21 cattle to Australian bulls.

Beebe- I actually have some Royal Oak. I have been so tempted to put it on the best black Galloways I can find to lay the foundation for a blue grey group, but my conscience won't let me use it for a cross. If I used it on the daughters of my own bull I might get a White Cloud type result. My bull throws a lot of white, but similar type.

Should we just go to Australia for marbling?
Thanks for correcting the photo!! I can scan you up a photo of her dam and maternal brother that shows the dam's udder. The calf is by Bogan Yalta and was the high seller at $9200.  I am sure there are a lot of good marbling shorthorns in North America we just have to gather information and identify them, but we need to start now! The advantage of the Australian bloodlines is they are well on their way to identifying the bulls with higher marbling. Some of those bulls have a good infusion of North American genetics as did bulls like Bogan Yalta. The Remitall Dispersal Catalogue is a classic!
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 09:05:57 AM by Okotoks »

Offline 3 Eagles shorthorns

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2015, 10:18:03 AM »
Is there any semen available of this bull?

Offline librarian

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2015, 11:19:27 AM »
Sure can't argue with that udder.
Did a search on the name Butte Lee on the ASA site. They have 161 animals in the database and the marbling is pretty good.
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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2015, 11:39:02 AM »


Should we just go to Australia for marbling?

Yes- that is where you're going to find the harder doing shorthorns that have the phenotype more commonly known for better marbling.  Look at the slicker/tighter hided, more angular cattle within any breed and there you will find those that are more prone to higher marbling.   

At the opposite end of that spectrum is going to be the little no neck frumpy cattle that tend to be easier keeping, higher back fat, but overall poorer in terms of marbling.

Offline librarian

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2015, 02:20:51 PM »
http://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=3098353&member_id=

Where did they get that 0.35 marbling epd on Leader 21?
I can't even attribute it on the (generous) 0.75 entry level marbling number r.n.pointed out...you have to go back quite a way to get to that. The system seems sort of fictitious in general.

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2015, 03:34:53 PM »
Being able to "mate" your cow to a potential bull and see their offspring's numbers seems like something that would be useful too.


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Offline justintime

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2015, 08:14:29 AM »
I still have two vials of Bogan Yalta semen in one of my tanks. I worked at Remitall when they dispersed and my dad purchased 18 vials of semen from him in that sale. Quite frankly, we were never real impressed with the calves we had from him. Despite Yalta being a good sized bull, his offspring were quite small framed. We never had a Bogan Yalta calf that was worth retaining in our herd or selling as a breeding animal. I also do not remember any of the offspring of Yalta that sold in the Remitall dispersal, ever going on to breed that well either.
In the early 80s, when we were running a feedlot as well as our purebred herds of Shorthorns, Simmental and Maines, we did several years of carcass testing on as many Shorthorns as we could. Several Shorthorn breeders sent their steers to us to feed and we followed them to the rail and collected carcass data on them. We also collected carcass data on our steers from our Simmental and Maines, as well as from our commercial herd as well. What we found was an eye opener to me, in that the Leader line had pretty dismal rib eye areas and it became apparent why many feedlots in that day were discounting Shorthorns in the markets. Here in Canada today, Shorthorn sired feeder steers are near the top of the market, providing they are good cattle. Poor cattle of any breed never bring a top dollar
Some of the Leader cattle we followed to the rail had tiny rib eye areas of 7.5- 8.2 square inches with live weights of over 1100 lbs. I also remember the discount we got on one steer who weighed 1070 lbs and had an actual REA of 6.2 square inches. He was discounted $.56/ lb on his dressed weight. Even back then, this meant there was too much fat and not enough red meat on them. The first Irish sired steers we tested showed an increase in REA of over 2 square inches with no reduction of marbling. I think this is probably the main thing many of the Irish genetics from that era did for the breed. When we decided to bring the first Irish cattle to Canada in 1974, we felt they may improve some poor traits we were seeing at that time. 1) they had great testicles and we felt they could improve testicle shape in our bulls 2) they had natural thickness from hooks to pins that was lacking in many lines in that day 3) most Irish females had excellent udders and many North American lines needed improvement in udder quality 4) the Irish had more frame which we felt was needed to compete with other breeds in that day. We never once thought of the Irish cattle as being where we wanted to end up, but only considered them to be a tool to help us develop more useful cattle in all areas of the industry.
I see some breeders today that want to use semen from any old bulls they can find from the 70s and 80s. I have always maintained that some of the bulls from this era were much ahead of their times and can be very useful today. But there are also another group of older genetics that were bad back when they were alive and they are still bad today. I see no problem in using old genetics if you understand what you are using. I have used a bunch of older genetics myself, and have had some excellent results. I have also used some that I wish I had tossed in the garbage can.
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Offline oakview

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2015, 09:23:45 AM »
Thank you for reinforcing my opinion that there were genetics available that had more muscle than the Leader 21 line of that era.  Our Leader 21 females weren't the best milkers unless their mothers were real good.  As far as show cattle of the late 60's and early 70's, though, they were the best we had.  We had a son of Boa Kae White Tornado that sired some good topped, heavy quartered calves and his daughters were consistently pretty good cows.  I don't think you'd want to use him today unless you were happy with 450 pound weaned calves.  There were a few bulls back then that did sire some muscle and if you look back in the old Shorthorn magazines you can pick them out and also pick out some breeders that focused on improving rib eye area.  Some that impressed me, ironically, were Leader 9th (he never impressed me with his muscle expression) descendants from Harvey Fulton.  Stouts President 26A was touted as a muscle bull (Stouts advertised quite a few bulls with large rib eyes)  The name Nelco Dillon rings a bell, too.  There was another Kenmar bull that ended up out west that I would use any time.  I'll look up his name when I have a minute.  There were a few certified meat sires from that era including Colomeadow Sting Ray from Pettys in Iowa.  One of the standards was 2.0 square inches of ribeye per 100 lbs. carcass.  Quite a departure from what JIT described of him Leader 21 line calves.   

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2015, 05:46:35 AM »
JIT,having the first hand knowledge you did of the poor performance of the Leader 21 cattle, what prompted you to use him again recently,flushing one of your donor cows and selling the offspring as breeding stock?Was there some redeeming quality in old 21 that you thought would offset all the poor traits?
Gary Kaper

Offline justintime

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2015, 07:56:00 AM »
JIT,having the first hand knowledge you did of the poor performance of the Leader 21 cattle, what prompted you to use him again recently,flushing one of your donor cows and selling the offspring as breeding stock?Was there some redeeming quality in old 21 that you thought would offset all the poor traits?

I flushed one of my biggest and thicker made donors to Leader 21st in an attempt to develop a calving ease sire that was basically a complete outcross to most of today's bloodlines. I used Shadybrook Presto 73G as she has produced some calves that had excellent muscle. The calves we had from this flush had very good BWs yet grew pretty well. We did have a reduction in the natural muscling in these calves but we did gain calving ease. One bull was produced, HC Leader's Legacy 6U and he was used at Galbreath Farms, Enderlin, ND for several years and they have a lot of daughters of him in their herd. I still use him in my herd as he is an excellent choice for use on heifers. I have found that his calves have much more performance than he showed himself and some of his daughters have become excellent cows. I also sold a set of embryos from this flush to Ford Family Shorthorns in Iowa and they got a bull that they called Lead Outside the Box ET and I have heard that he is also breeding well. I believe Emily Ford has semen available on him and there is also semen available on Leader's Legacy 6U in the US. Leader's Legacy 6U semen is also available here in Canada.
I also did some flushes of my biggest donors to Pheasant Creek Leader 4th, who I have always considered to be the very best bull I had any experience with from the Leader line. Leader 4th's dam was a cow named Hi Way Honeysuckle ( by Hi Way Fantasy) and I still consider this cow to be in my top 10 list for the best Shorthorn cows I have seen in my life. She was raised by Lloyd Becker, Carrington, ND and sold to Alf Dreger here in Saskatchewan. The Dreger herd consisted of a maximum of 7 or 8 cows at the most and he almost always had 3 bulls at the Regina Bull Sale and they were always most impressive. Pheasant Creek Leader 4th was sired by Kinnaber Leader 6th, who was, in my opinion, the best looking Leader 21st son, but then, he was used in the Dreger herd for several years which only had a few cows. It was a pretty good hotel to live at!
My dad purchased all the semen on Leader 4th in the Remitall dispersal in 1967. I lost 100 vials of it in a semen tank that cracked so I only had 2 canes left which was in another tank. I decided to flush my two biggest donors to him, again to try to produce some calving ease genetics. I again flushed Shadybrook Presto 73G and I also flushed B Good Red Sue 1P. Even though these donors had some birth weight in their genetic make-up, all the resulting calves were under 80 lbs at birth. The Red Sue flush resulted in the best calves and I ended up with 5 bulls and 1 heifer from that flush. The calves from this flush were probably the most uniform set of ET calves I have ever produced. The 5 bulls were virtually identical and found myself having to look at their ear tags every time I looked at them to know which one I was looking at.  I kept the bull I thought was probably the best one, HC Bar Code 16X to use on my heifers and it certainly worked well. These calves from Leader 4th and my two biggest cows were much smaller framed and I still have the two ET daughters of Leader 4th and these two cows in my herd. They are two of the smaller framed cows I have, despite their dams being the biggest ones I had at the time. Both these Leader 4th daughters have become excellent producing females. When we did ultrasound the bulls produced from these flushes, they all had smaller REA, but they also had excellent marbling scores. I have also found that my Bar Code offspring have had more performance than he had and some of his sons have bred very well. Bernie Vacura in western Kansas has a Bar Code son named HC Quantum 30Z and he is breeding very well. Bernie says he had daughters of him wean at 750 lbs on dry pastures and he is impressed with their depth and thickness.
I have always maintained that breeding cattle should be about blending genetics from different bloodlines to try to produce a better animal. In the case of these flushes, I think I did accomplish this in some ways, as I was able to produce some calving ease genetics that still had reasonable performance. I may have sacrificed some muscle, but I gained some easy fleshing ability and there are lots of genetics I can use with these genetics to improve the muscling again. I have attached pictures of the two donors I used to flush to Leader 21 and his grandson Leader 4th.  Both these cows were larger framed and weighed over 1800 lbs on a poor day. I was afraid to use smaller cows to flush to, as I thought it may result in ET calves that were too small. The daughters of Leader 4th I have in my herd are probably around 1400 lb cows, so the blend seemed to work OK I think.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 11:30:19 AM by justintime »
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline justintime

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2015, 08:31:25 AM »
I will also add that I would still be using the Bar Code bull today, however, he developed testicle degeneration and we had to ship him. I never collected any semen from him, which I am regretting today. This is a topic for another thread, but I have talked with several local vets and with the U of S Vet college and they are all saying that they have been seeing much more of this in recent years than in the past. I lost another herd bull several years ago to this. When testicle degeneration occurs, there is a noticeable reduction in testicle size and they quite often quit producing semen. In both of the cases I have experienced, these bulls dropped over 1 cm per month and continued to do this for several months. I know the U of S vet college collected data on bulls that showed this problem for several years and did not find anything that caused it. They said these bulls appeared to be in perfect health in every other way. They also said that they have seen an occasional bull that will show a drop in testicle size and then stop dropping and some of these bulls will breed again. In the case of my two bulls, neither bull ever settled another cow after this happened. I will start another thread and see if anyone else has any experience with this issue.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline oakview

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2015, 08:56:28 AM »
Kenmar Max 21Y was one of the bulls that I remember from an old magazine that I really liked and would sure use him today if I could find semen.  Very balanced, clean made, deep, and heavy muscled.   He was in advertisements from Valley View in Nebraska and Shallmar in Montana, I believe.  Valley View also had a photo of Pheasant Creek Leader 4th in their ad.  Max 21y was sired by Pleasant Dawn Seal 2nd.  If you find semen, let me know! 

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: ET Weston Ablo daughter
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2015, 06:12:52 AM »
JIT,having the first hand knowledge you did of the poor performance of the Leader 21 cattle, what prompted you to use him again recently,flushing one of your donor cows and selling the offspring as breeding stock?Was there some redeeming quality in old 21 that you thought would offset all the poor traits?

I flushed one of my biggest and thicker made donors to Leader 21st in an attempt to develop a calving ease sire that was basically a complete outcross to most of today's bloodlines. I used Shadybrook Presto 73G as she has produced some calves that had excellent muscle. The calves we had from this flush had very good BWs yet grew pretty well. We did have a reduction in the natural muscling in these calves but we did gain calving ease. One bull was produced, HC Leader's Legacy 6U and he was used at Galbreath Farms, Enderlin, ND for several years and they have a lot of daughters of him in their herd. I still use him in my herd as he is an excellent choice for use on heifers. I have found that his calves have much more performance than he showed himself and some of his daughters have become excellent cows. I also sold a set of embryos from this flush to Ford Family Shorthorns in Iowa and they got a bull that they called Lead Outside the Box ET and I have heard that he is also breeding well. I believe Emily Ford has semen available on him and there is also semen available on Leader's Legacy 6U in the US. Leader's Legacy 6U semen is also available here in Canada.
I also did some flushes of my biggest donors to Pheasant Creek Leader 4th, who I have always considered to be the very best bull I had any experience with from the Leader line. Leader 4th's dam was a cow named Hi Way Honeysuckle ( by Hi Way Fantasy) and I still consider this cow to be in my top 10 list for the best Shorthorn cows I have seen in my life. She was raised by Lloyd Becker, Carrington, ND and sold to Alf Dreger here in Saskatchewan. The Dreger herd consisted of a maximum of 7 or 8 cows at the most and he almost always had 3 bulls at the Regina Bull Sale and they were always most impressive. Pheasant Creek Leader 4th was sired by Kinnaber Leader 6th, who was, in my opinion, the best looking Leader 21st son, but then, he was used in the Dreger herd for several years which only had a few cows. It was a pretty good hotel to live at!
My dad purchased all the semen on Leader 4th in the Remitall dispersal in 1967. I lost 100 vials of it in a semen tank that cracked so I only had 2 canes left which was in another tank. I decided to flush my two biggest donors to him, again to try to produce some calving ease genetics. I again flushed Shadybrook Presto 73G and I also flushed B Good Red Sue 1P. Even though these donors had some birth weight in their genetic make-up, all the resulting calves were under 80 lbs at birth. The Red Sue flush resulted in the best calves and I ended up with 5 bulls and 1 heifer from that flush. The calves from this flush were probably the most uniform set of ET calves I have ever produced. The 5 bulls were virtually identical and found myself having to look at their ear tags every time I looked at them to know which one I was looking at.  I kept the bull I thought was probably the best one, HC Bar Code 16X to use on my heifers and it certainly worked well. These calves from Leader 4th and my two biggest cows were much smaller framed and I still have the two ET daughters of Leader 4th and these two cows in my herd. They are two of the smaller framed cows I have, despite their dams being the biggest ones I had at the time. Both these Leader 4th daughters have become excellent producing females. When we did ultrasound the bulls produced from these flushes, they all had smaller REA, but they also had excellent marbling scores. I have also found that my Bar Code offspring have had more performance than he had and some of his sons have bred very well. Bernie Vacura in western Kansas has a Bar Code son named HC Quantum 30Z and he is breeding very well. Bernie says he had daughters of him wean at 750 lbs on dry pastures and he is impressed with their depth and thickness.
I have always maintained that breeding cattle should be about blending genetics from different bloodlines to try to produce a better animal. In the case of these flushes, I think I did accomplish this in some ways, as I was able to produce some calving ease genetics that still had reasonable performance. I may have sacrificed some muscle, but I gained some easy fleshing ability and there are lots of genetics I can use with these genetics to improve the muscling again. I have attached pictures of the two donors I used to flush to Leader 21 and his grandson Leader 4th.  Both these cows were larger framed and weighed over 1800 lbs on a poor day. I was afraid to use smaller cows to flush to, as I thought it may result in ET calves that were too small. The daughters of Leader 4th I have in my herd are probably around 1400 lb cows, so the blend seemed to work OK I think.
JIT,your reply brings up several topics of discusion here are a couple,
1.Does the mating of 2 extremes give you a reliable  breeding animal that will produce offspring in the middle especially when one of the parents pedigrees is very much mainstream to a large part of the breeding population.
2.How do we define the breed,Terminal or Maternal? If maternal, as our calling card has been in the past should the breed have need of calving ease lines for heifers or have to go outside the breed as many have to get a heifer safe bull to breed their purebred Shorthorn heifers?
 



Gary Kaper

 

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