Ethics

Call me naïve, I suppose that I am.  I have always believed in presenting what I am selling at its best.  However, I do not believe in misrepresenting what I am selling.  Matching mating’s between sire and dam to arrive at a better breeding piece than the previous generation is what I strive for.

I find it disheartening in the livestock industry that many of us find it acceptable to misrepresent what we are showing/selling.  Ultimately the show ring should result in sales of livestock for the purebred producer not just a Purple Banner.  Same for a photograph of said animal.  I would like to be able to look at a photograph of an animal and not have to try and determine the extent of tampering that has been done on the image. 

Where is the line you will not cross?  Is it OK to artificially fill an animal (pump)?  Is it OK to “air” an animal?  Is it acceptable to feed an animal ingredients that are not approved for the species that you are exhibiting?  How about pumping a sale animal for a picture and a video?  Is it acceptable to alter a photograph to the extent that the original animal is not recognizable?

I believe that it is just a matter of time before the livestock show ring industry is targeted by animal rights groups.  What would be the negative effect on the entire livestock industry if a film were presented showing an animal being aired?  How about unapproved feed ingredients being fed to animals that are ultimately going to end up on a consumer’s plate?  How about a pump being used to add “extra dimension” to an animal?

I absolutely hate the film clips of the Holsteins that are shown repeatedly by the animal rights groups.  Every time I see one of these clips I feel that the livestock industry is being unfairly portrayed and demonized by a few “bad apples”  and that many times these clips are being used out of context.  How much worse will it be when it is a “show animal” on one of those clips?  Not to mention what we as adults are teaching the next generation of farmers and ranchers.

I'm sure there are as many opinions on this topic as there are people on this forum. I do believe there is a not-so-fine line between presentation and misrepresentation. I think there are a lot of people who justify the things they do because they know or even suspect other people do things that are worse. Cheating is cheating. Even when you don't get caught. Some things are just unethical. Other things are inhumane. I don't know if that matters to some people. If there's money or recognition involved, some people will stop at nothing. I think--and I hope--the people who don't cross the lines outnumber the ones who do, but I may be naive, too. There's an art to being a breeder or a showman or a feeder or a fitter, and more power to the ones who are fair about doing it, whether they win or lose. A lot of people prefer the quickest, easiest way, whatever that takes.

I have always told my boys we will always be 100  percent honest  and open in everything we do. Because if and when you reach the top you cannot leave any ammunition for the doubters. Fortunately we have met about of people that are the same.

We try and raise a few nice calves and sell them.  We even actually had a calf branded at Ft Worth in the light weight class this past week. (one we sold from our ranch--our boys done showing)

I love messing with show cattle but never have much liked the politics of it.

I hate cheating.  I hate all of it.  I cringe at the thought those calves sitting in those coolers and not moving.  Having air pumped under there skin, drenched with all sorts of junk and all the rest. Just in hopes to 'get a heads up' on the competition or whatever they call it these days.

If you ask me if you get caught doing that **** you should be banned for life in the show ring.  Sad thing is the kids don't do it, its the parents, jocks and the fitters.  Perhaps they need to fine those they catch doing it?   I don't know but as much as I love watching the shows, messing with the calves, and all the rest...  I hate a cheater just about as bad as I hate a liar.

Call me old fashioned.. I think it should be for the kids... and to teach them life lessons.  Seems some parents have 'lost the meaning' so to speak

I think we can only do what we know is right, I gave up worrying about what others do, can't control it.

I think you are right SWMO. It is a sad industry in a lot of respects. Just think how awesome it would be if everyone was honest and didn't cheat even the slightest bit? Oh that December 28th calf, we'll just make it a January 3rd so it can make a class or sell better. The question for all of us is, where do you draw the line? In my opinion it should be at reality... <rock>

Having air pumped under there skin, drenched with all sorts of junk and all the rest. Just in hopes to 'get a heads up' on the competition or whatever they call it these days.
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Surely the judge can feel that when he/she runs their hand along the animal when they check conditioning?

I am not a judge, so don't speak from experience, but that would surely feel like a Clostridial gas gangrene when you run your hand across it?

If the judge then just threw the animal out of the ring it would, I am sure, stop the practice in its tracks!

JTM said:

I think you are right SWMO. It is a sad industry in a lot of respects. Just think how awesome it would be if everyone was honest and didn't cheat even the slightest bit? Oh that December 28th calf, we'll just make it a January 3rd so it can make a class or sell better. The question for all of us is, where do you dry the line? In my opinion it should be at reality... <rock>

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Sorry, JTM, but you're being a bit naïve.  If it were show or race horses, I'd agree with you.  Too many show cattle producers are not switching a few days but by a few months.  2-3 months in actuality.  I've shown at Fort Worth the past couple of years with true birth date on my calves.  Good cattle.  Last year my heifer was in the top of the bottom end of heifers.  She was nice, just didn't have the size or bloom.  This year, the same heifer of mine sat near the top of her class, largest in her class and beating most of the heifers that a year ago were so big and "full".  And none of the heifers were any where near far along either (in their pregnancies).  The top heifers were nice heifers and had won numerous other big shows.  But in the reasons, the judge said my heifer "wowed" him.  At that level though, you have to pick everything apart to sort those few top heifers.  He gave me a compliment and also a good reason why we were behind the other heifers..  Guess what I'm saying is do what's right and if you go to play, it isn't always going to be fair.  But those fat calves that had their birth dates changed will quit growing, and you'll eventually catch up and sometimes pass them by.

The showring isn't the only place with ethical issues.

knabe said:

The showring isn't the only place with ethical issues.

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One example of this would be Pro athletes that I think is a great synonym with the show industry. So many of them use substances that are against the rules to enhance their ability and longevity in an event. The people running it did just enough to cover their behind but made no real steps to prevent cheating until popular opinion made them.  The people cheating rationalized it by saying everyone is doing it, I can't compete if I don't do it or my personnel favorite I just did it to take care of my family. Now if the last statement was true don't you think they would just slip away into the back ground with their truck load of money and take care of several generations of their family? They only did it for fame, fortune and prestige, that is why they get upset and fight, lie and what ever it takes to hide it so they can get into the hall of fame and stay in the record books as a "great one".

But who do you blame? The athlete or the establishment that put some rules on paper but never do or did anything to enforce them? Why ask the age old question why do people lie, cheat and steal for fame or fortune. Congress does not have the monopoly on this. We must ask, why is there not more testing done on winners to confirm they followed the rules? Why is their not more 3 judge panels to combat the "the judge and that breeder are friends"? If their is an ownership dead line then why is that not the entry deadline as well with a DNA sample? Liars, cheaters and thieves have been around since the end of time and you aren't going to change it only police it with rules AND enforcement across the board.

As far as cosmetic surgery or injecting air or any other  procedures to enhance appearance it should be and is against the law. Putting an animal thru this is no different then a spouse making their significant other go thru a cosmetic surgery to enhance their appearance. Humans have the right to decide for themselves but no human should have the right to put any other human or animal thru cosmetic procedures just to change looks for any reason. It is abuse in the eyes of the law and should be enforced before the animal rights activist can make it a political issue.

I think people are turned away everyday from this great industry do to these issues and others such as cost but I think one has everything to do with the other. Show cattle is in competition with other activities and will keep losing if they stay on the current path IMO. Let's see, I can buy a boat and a camper and take the family camping or we can buy a show heifer, feed it and take care of it, take to a show and get creamed by someone and then hear all these rumors on him cheating or knowing the judge and absolutely ruins their experience.

Disclaimer: I do not think all (or even the majority) show people cheat or have anything to do with any of this. I think the first people in the shadows who make a claim someone cheated  are the ones who are cheating.I think they cheated and lost to them then they think they must have cheated too or friends with the judge or some excuse but don't want to put their name to the accusation and draw attention to themselves. It is ok to be a cheater but not a hypocrite LOL.
Also their are superior animals, genetics, feed programs and marketing. Just because you are successful certainly does not mean you must have cheated. To be on the top of any industry it takes knowledge and money to stay on top it takes integrity.

It starts and ends with the judges.  At Ft worth last week, it was obvious which calves were too old for which class. There were thousand lb heifers competing as Aprils.  Until the judges grow some balls and stop lining their pockets, cheating will continue. 

It never changes that the people that do well are[ accused ]of something.We now DNA,do eye scans ,pull hair,collect urine,examine the carass,towel,police the fitters and it has not changed.In my opinion the kids that are brought up with high standards,morals,or ethics dont even think about cheating.Unfortunately some of the fitters and I hate to say it parents get caught up in winning at all costs that they forget the real reason for projects.There have been some instances where action was taken but it usually hurts everyone.A rule not enforced should not be in the book.

-XBAR- said:

It starts and ends with the judges.  At Ft worth last week, it was obvious which calves were too old for which class. There were thousand lb heifers competing as Aprils.  Until the judges grow some balls and stop lining their pockets, cheating will continue. 

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1st sentence is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.  Until we get judges that aren't looking toward their next job judging or paying back a favor, & have the guts to judge a breeding heifer as exactly that, this will continue.
2nd sentence made me smile!  Had a 1K lb April heifer in AZ & she placed where she should have...last.  Her stated birthdate was her actual birthdate (our place is too small to not "find" one for a month or more), but I'd let her get too big & way too fat.  My fault & lesson learned!

Come to Ohio, the good ole boy system runs wild at the winter shows here.  It's all about money and politics!!  A breeder that raises very good cattle can not do it on his own, very sad.

loveRedcows said:

-XBAR- said:

It starts and ends with the judges.  At Ft worth last week, it was obvious which calves were too old for which class. There were thousand lb heifers competing as Aprils.  Until the judges grow some balls and stop lining their pockets, cheating will continue. 

Click to expand...

1st sentence is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.  Until we get judges that aren't looking toward their next job judging or paying back a favor, & have the guts to judge a breeding heifer as exactly that, this will continue.
2nd sentence made me smile!  Had a 1K lb April heifer in AZ & she placed where she should have...last.  Her stated birthdate was her actual birthdate (our place is too small to not "find" one for a month or more), but I'd let her get too big & way too fat.  My fault & lesson learned!

Click to expand...

I am not saying SOME judges do not have their share of  blame but it is the organizer who hire the judges is where I think the blame lies the most and is the best place to get any change.IMO.  A few years ago a county fair hired a known breeder of clubby cattle to judge the fair 2 county's  away. Well surprise surprise 3 of top 5 including champion were sold by him. I mean come on who hires someone and puts the show reputation in that situation. I am not saying those 3 calves didn't belong in the top 5, I wasn't there but why even have that chance for the "good old boys" rumors to start. I am sure the fist fight that broke out in the barn after the show didn't help draw in new folks to the beef barn the next year either after the comment was made "I should have bought my calf from the judge so I could win".  

I don't lay all the blame on the judges of a show. A judge's job is line em up based on the information he has, and I think most judges do the best they can. Any judge who tries to determine whether or not a heifer belongs in a class shouldn't be judging that class! That's not his or her job.

As for having cattle led to you that you raised, I've had to deal with that situation one time. It was a good heifer, and it never occurred to me when I took the job that she would be at that fair. I was so worried about placing her too high that I almost robbed her of her rightful place in line. She was a good heifer, and she won her class. She didn't win the show. Because I thought she should win her class, but I there was a better one to use when they came back for champion. So there's as much responsibility not to penalize an animal for the wrong reasons as there is not to promote it for the wrong reasons. If a judge knows there may be a conflict of interest, that's a reason not to take the job or to ask someone not to enter that class. I don't think a judge who blatantly places his own cattle at the top if they don't deserve to be there would get to judge many more shows.

Ethics in the show barn come from the people who are knowingly breaking the rules. Can stricter enforcement of the rules help?...maybe. Will that stop anybody who wants to cheat? I doubt it.

loveRedcows said:

-XBAR- said:

It starts and ends with the judges.  At Ft worth last week, it was obvious which calves were too old for which class. There were thousand lb heifers competing as Aprils.  Until the judges grow some balls and stop lining their pockets, cheating will continue. 

Click to expand...

1st sentence is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.  Until we get judges that aren't looking toward their next job judging or paying back a favor, & have the guts to judge a breeding heifer as exactly that, this will continue.
2nd sentence made me smile!  Had a 1K lb April heifer in AZ & she placed where she should have...last.  Her stated birthdate was her actual birthdate (our place is too small to not "find" one for a month or more), but I'd let her get too big & way too fat.  My fault & lesson learned!

Click to expand...

So you're 9 1/2 month old red angus heifer weighed a thousand?

J2F,
I see where you're coming from in the sense that the organizers have to hire ethical qualified judges, but ultimately, it comes down to the integrity of the man in the ring when he's selecting the calves.  Your example to me is just like the VP of Express Angus ranches judging the Shorthorn show...while a prominent affiliate of the Shorthorn breed judges the Angus show.  We sit here and talk about all that encompasses good- integrity, honesty, strong character in general - and I can just see the powers that be just sittin back burnin one down getting a big ol' kick outta how gullible us dorights are. 

leanbeef said:

I don't lay all the blame on the judges of a show. A judge's job is line em up based on the information he has, and I think most judges do the best they can. Any judge who tries to determine whether or not a heifer belongs in a class shouldn't be judging that class! That's not his or her job.As for having cattle led to you that you raised, I've had to deal with that situation one time. It was a good heifer, and it never occurred to me when I took the job that she would be at that fair. I was so worried about placing her too high that I almost robbed her of her rightful place in line. She was a good heifer, and she won her class. She didn't win the show. Because I thought she should win her class, but I there was a better one to use when they came back for champion. So there's as much responsibility not to penalize an animal for the wrong reasons as there is not to promote it for the wrong reasons. If a judge knows there may be a conflict of interest, that's a reason not to take the job or to ask someone not to enter that class. I don't think a judge who blatantly places his own cattle at the top if they don't deserve to be there would get to judge many more shows.

Ethics in the show barn come from the people who are knowingly breaking the rules. Can stricter enforcement of the rules help?...maybe. Will that stop anybody who wants to cheat? I doubt it.

Click to expand...

Anybody with any real cattle experience can tell you there is no such thing as a thousand lb 9 month old British heifer.  When there are heifers within the same class literally 350lbs apart, someone with some juevos needs to speak up!  The fraudulent act is being committed right in front of the judge! It is, at that point, the judges responsibility to use his CATTLE SENSE and say, wait a minute... now either this heifer is older than 9 months, or she's not a Shorthorn... and either way, she should be discarded.  IMO, a judge should NEVER be allowed to judge ANY cattle that he could even be said to have the slightest affiliation with. There are far too many judges to choose from to be dealing w/ a conflict of interest.

-XBAR- said:

loveRedcows said:

-XBAR- said:

It starts and ends with the judges.  At Ft worth last week, it was obvious which calves were too old for which class. There were thousand lb heifers competing as Aprils.  Until the judges grow some balls and stop lining their pockets, cheating will continue. 

Click to expand...

1st sentence is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.  Until we get judges that aren't looking toward their next job judging or paying back a favor, & have the guts to judge a breeding heifer as exactly that, this will continue.
2nd sentence made me smile!  Had a 1K lb April heifer in AZ & she placed where she should have...last.  Her stated birthdate was her actual birthdate (our place is too small to not "find" one for a month or more), but I'd let her get too big & way too fat.  My fault & lesson learned!

Click to expand...

So you're 9 1/2 month old red angus heifer weighed a thousand?

J2F,
I see where you're coming from in the sense that the organizers have to hire ethical qualified judges, but ultimately, it comes down to the integrity of the man in the ring when he's selecting the calves.  Your example to me is just like the VP of Express Angus ranches judging the Shorthorn show...while a prominent affiliate of the Shorthorn breed judges the Angus show.  We sit here and talk about all that encompasses good- integrity, honesty, strong character in general - and I can just see the powers that be just sittin back burnin one down getting a big ol' kick outta how gullible us dorights are. 

leanbeef said:

I don't lay all the blame on the judges of a show. A judge's job is line em up based on the information he has, and I think most judges do the best they can. Any judge who tries to determine whether or not a heifer belongs in a class shouldn't be judging that class! That's not his or her job.As for having cattle led to you that you raised, I've had to deal with that situation one time. It was a good heifer, and it never occurred to me when I took the job that she would be at that fair. I was so worried about placing her too high that I almost robbed her of her rightful place in line. She was a good heifer, and she won her class. She didn't win the show. Because I thought she should win her class, but I there was a better one to use when they came back for champion. So there's as much responsibility not to penalize an animal for the wrong reasons as there is not to promote it for the wrong reasons. If a judge knows there may be a conflict of interest, that's a reason not to take the job or to ask someone not to enter that class. I don't think a judge who blatantly places his own cattle at the top if they don't deserve to be there would get to judge many more shows.

Ethics in the show barn come from the people who are knowingly breaking the rules. Can stricter enforcement of the rules help?...maybe. Will that stop anybody who wants to cheat? I doubt it.

Click to expand...

Anybody with any real cattle experience can tell you there is no such thing as a thousand lb 9 month old British heifer.  When there are heifers within the same class literally 350lbs apart, someone with some juevos needs to speak up!  The fraudulent act is being committed right in front of the judge! It is, at that point, the judges responsibility to use his CATTLE SENSE and say, wait a minute... now either this heifer is older than 9 months, or she's not a Shorthorn... and either way, she should be discarded.  IMO, a judge should NEVER be allowed to judge ANY cattle that he could even be said to have the slightest affiliation with. There are far too many judges to choose from to be dealing w/ a conflict of interest.

Click to expand...

My point is there is somebody in charge of every show whose job it is to qualify entries for every class. That shouldn't be left to the person who's been hired to judge. When you're asked to judge, you should be able to assume that only qualified cattle enter the ring for a class. If you think an animal is too big for it's age and that's a reason to place them down, then say she's too big. I would NEVER accuse somebody of cheating and excuse them from the ring.

Since when should performance be penalized? I've got a dang good April that'll beat 1000 lbs now and that's what she is, an April!

I do see your point and agree xbar. But I am talking about all shows and organizers from the county level on up to the national shows and associations. Why don't associations have approved judge list for shows they are involved in? Why is their not an independent judge association to monitor and track judges that any show can hire thru them with confidence?  I mean there just seems to be several things that could change in the show industry that could fix so many of these rumor mill problems that it just seems dirty in it self that these simple steps are not taken to at least give the illusion of a clean run show and improve the overall image. I have a friend that was starting in the cattle industry the same time I was in a different breed. He got a sales catalog he had been waiting on and picked a few he liked. He called a friend that worked for a big outfit to see what he thought and his friend told him it would be a good sale to go watch but not buy. Why? Because he was a judge in a national show this year and his animals will go thru the roof. From what I heard the lot's averaged close to 2k more at that sale than the previous 2 years. Why list who the judge will be more than 1 month before a show?

Leanbeef I see your point and agree it should not be on the judge to disqualify based on animal appearance but also agree the judge should put animals  back in the pack that is  not correct size for age...too big or small.

I am outsider working my way into the cattle and show industry and this is the things I hear and see. I don't believe cheating and such is as wide spread as some topics and discussions may lead some to believe but I do think some of it does go on and should be tried to stopped.All evil needs to succeed is good people sit and do nothing.  I hope to have good experiences and hopefully help others have good experiences in what I love to do but maybe I am just silly and it will chew me up and spit me out but I doubt it. What few people I have met so far are good honest hard working people that I am proud to know.

As far as the picture manipulating part of this topic it is what it is. Don't buy if you can't see a video or see the animal in person. If you drive 3 hours to see and animal that has been misrepresented in a picture then don't ever do business. Right or wrong doesn't matter it is life.