FIREWATER

Is it that bad or just his weakness? Lebrons weakness is his outside shooting, but does that mean he is a bad outside shooter? Just as firewaters weakness is his capacity but compared to the other bulls is it that bad?! Just because its a weakness on him doesn't mean you take that same gut (or shot for lebron) and put it on something else, that may be their strength

Your talking weakness on a bull that doesn't have many of them. According to the bills being paid by him. And that's what matters

So not knowing a lot about Charolais, please complare FIREWATER to bulls like BLUEGRASS or his son LEDGER?  I like all of them.

I liked Firewater well enough to Flush one of my best Donor cows to him !

Charguy,
Game Changer is a DR Revelation out of an EXL female by Sparrows Alliance.  Revelation is a calving ease bull and the EXL cow is a front pasture "guts and hair" type female, not calving ease like Revelation.  Neither animal can be considered performance oriented.  The EXL cow can be considered show ring quality.  Given the differences in pedigree for both his sire and dam we will have to wait for his first calves to see if he take more after the dam or sire.
If you are looking for more performance in a calving ease package I would look at merit RoundUp or in a non calving ease package Sparrows Birmingham. 

You are entitled to your opinion XBAR and Im entitled to mine. If you want to trash a bull who could work in alot of operations - be my guest. Many others will happily use the bull, sell the hell out of the calves and make money.

Mark - the guy I buy Char bulls from used Round-Up on some heifers and they were not all that easy calving. He helped the 4 he had bred to them. Nothing serious but I dont like helping heifers. He mentioned those 4 heifers have not cycled for next year breeding and I dont like that. Both him and I used Ledger on heifers and are very happy with the calves. More depth, hair and overall muscle pattern then the Bluegrass calves with no trouble calving at all. I used him again and bred the 2 Firewater heifers i bought for the kids for 4-H to him.

Im not a fan of the Birmingham /Latoro bloodlines. Mainly because I dont like dealing with horns and the cattle are not my style. I see the Game Changer bull is Canadian on the bottom side. Probably why I like him. Good looking bull. I dont think my char bull supplier will be too interested - he used Revelation when he first came out and had pretty good luck. And they just bought CDN rights in another calf.

Charguy said:

You are entitled to your opinion XBAR and Im entitled to mine. If you want to trash a bull who could work in alot of operations - be my guest. Many others will happily use the bull, sell the hell out of the calves and make money.

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I just hold cattle breeding in a little higher regard than just making a little money. What about what's best for Charolais breed? Now there's a noble concept. 

In addition, I didn't trash the bull. I simply stated, that because of his tubular, refined phenotype- Firewater isnt the best choice when trying to produce brood cows.  I would have thought - again based on his phenotype- that he would put some growth in his calves. According to previous posters, not not the case either.

Showstopper, now that your on your toes, not only is it his weakness- its bad.  The Lebron analogy isn't comparable bc while you're right- his outside shooting is his weakness- his shooting is still....( are you ready for the operative word?) ADEQUATE.  Firewaters heart girth isn't. It's more like Shaq 's free throw percentage. Bc Shaq is so dominant - literally the best ever at some of the other aspects of the game, his free throw % is overlooked.  I don't see anything in this bull worth overlooking his lack of capacity. 

Thats great XBAR, you continue down your path of breeding cattle and Ill stick to mine. You breed cattle for more then just dollars and let us all know how you make out.

Ill stick to raising quality cattle that top the market. I had 175 steers on Nov.12 last year averaged 858 lbs off the pasture and sold for $1.425/lb. You breed cattle for whatever magically things you are breeding them for. Ill continue to breed them to feed my family.

We forget the basics sometimes.

Anyone that highly prefers British cattle are not going to like any exotics.  Depth/capacity isn't the strength of exotic cattle, its their muscle. Within the Charolais breed, Firewater is a real good bull - both for show and for female production.  Within the Charolais breed, Firewater (or any other "collected" bull) is more than adequate on pretty much every trait.  The vast majority of bulls running around in any commercial pasture - of any breed - really aren't even in the conversation quality wise.  As tough as almost any show is anywhere in the country, any bull that is siring winners consistently is going to good, regardless of the breed.

Anyone that really prefers British cattle - whatever breed - aren't going to think most exotic cattle are deep enough.  Capacity, milk, and ability to grade is their trademark.

I'm guilty of it too, but we make way too many judgements off of photos.  The more I'm out and about and see cattle in person that I've seen photos of prior, the less use I think photos are.  I'll never say never, but I'll have a real hard time buying an animal I haven't laid eyes on.  As far as picking bulls for AI, I make my judgements on calves I've seen.  I'm very certain you really have no idea what a bull's offspring will look like based off of his baby photo, and probably off of a video or mature picture.  It's hard enough to guess when you see them in person.

Is he a bull like Meyer 734 where the females are only valuable?

He's raised some good bulls, turton is a son. There's several younger promo bulls that have been sired by him. If anything I would say that he's more hit and miss with bull calves.

Charguy,

Whe i say a bull is easy calving I mean on cows.  Heifer bulls area different category.  For heifers i like to see around a maximum of a -2.5 Birth weight EPD.
I have seen some interesting bulls good for heifers on the birth weight end that are out crosses to most of the bloodline used today.  Too bad some AI stud doesn't o more home work on different bloodlines for heifer bulls.  I am very happy to hear Ledger is calving well as he is a quantum leap over his sire Bluegrass.
The big draw back in using any ABC bloodline cattle is birth weight.  That is why bulls line Sanchez and Birmingham are popular-they are low birth weight ABC bloodline cattle.  Selling horned bulls in ventral Alberta is not hard,  In fact we still have guys that will not buy a polled bull (unless Angus).  Charolais bull customers in Alberta want growth and a butt end on their calves out every cow they own (basically a simmy british cross), By the way, the EXL herd had plenty of horned cows-they showed many over the years and were very successful with both polled and horned cattle.  being polled isn't as important in canada as it it in the United States.

Mark there use to be a time when a horned char bull was the answer but the polled bulls are pretty close. I avoid the horned bloodlines if I can. The guy I buy Chars from used a polled Hank son so he is bringing some good old horned genetics into a polled herd. Calving out 800 cows I don't have the manpower to dehorn calves. I just don't like the look of those ABC bulls - too rough for me. I have some powerful simmi x cows so I can afford to be a little fancier with the bulls.  To each his own.

CharGuy,

Are you using any M6 breeding?  Sounds like it may be your cup of tea.

Mark

I've got an M6 bull M786658

Can't say I ever used a M6 bull or offspring. Not too many Texas bulls up here b/c of bluetongue