Quantcast ? for the Shorthorn Experts.

Sponsors



Author Topic: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.  (Read 29744 times)

Offline sue

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1906
  • Karma 90
    • View Profile
    • www.lakesidecattle.com
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2014, 11:29:28 AM »
Who wants the sister mates to the Yield grade 1 or 2 steers, not me ? 
Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline -XBAR-

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3457
  • Karma 170
  • SASKVALLEY ALAMO 8A
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2014, 11:31:04 AM »
What is the liveweight of a yg 1 or 2 steer?

Offline knabe

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 13488
  • Karma 4
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2014, 12:27:32 PM »
Who wants the sister mates to the Yield grade 1 or 2 steers, not me ?


please elaborate?  why does it matter where overall fat % is stored?
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline knabe

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 13488
  • Karma 4
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2014, 12:28:21 PM »
What is the liveweight of a yg 1 or 2 steer?


more than a similar sized yg 3 or 4 due to density of fat vs muscle.
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline -XBAR-

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3457
  • Karma 170
  • SASKVALLEY ALAMO 8A
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2014, 12:30:03 PM »
Right, I realize that- but Sue's point was to imply the sister mates out of yg1 or 2 cattle would mature larger than she would prefer.  I was just curious the avg live weight of cattle that grade yg1 or 2.

Offline knabe

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 13488
  • Karma 4
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2014, 12:55:01 PM »
Right, I realize that- but Sue's point was to imply the sister mates out of yg1 or 2 cattle would mature larger than she would prefer.  I was just curious the avg live weight of cattle that grade yg1 or 2.


why would they be larger maturing or later maturing? if they have IM fat, but mature the same, isn't that a good thing? they of course won't look the same bcs.


i wish there was a large data set on scanned cattle at two week or monthly intervals, also with the cattle at different starting weights throughout the year.  anecdotal evidence is that cattle marble more in the fall due to photoperiodism. would like to see that with scans with cattle at different ages on the same date with enough cattle to control for variance.
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline nate53

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 419
  • Karma 28
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2014, 02:36:16 PM »
Until someone raises YG1 animals that grade prime and actually look and perform on the maternal side.  Until then no I am not interested.  I guess if it was a totally terminal line it would be okay, but if one did that why not use Wagyu and be done with it?

What is the live weight of a YG1 steer?  Depends are you talking 4 frame YG1 or 8 frame YG1?   ;D

I guess the point of this topic was to see if there is any shorty sires available that have sired a reasonable rate of prime calves.  I guess there isn't any shorthorns available to do this, because nobody has bothered to find out.  I guess it's back to the proven angus genetics (I'll keep playing with it on the shorties).  Why would it be reasonable for angus seedstock operations to figure this out but not shorties?

On a #850 pound carcass right now YG3 or 1 or 2, the difference between choice and prime is $17.17 vrs. $179.86 premium per head.  I would agree it doesn't always pay to feed for prime.  But for cow calf operations who grow their own feed and feed the animals out themselves.  It makes sense to do it most of the time. 
My post are just my opinion.

Offline JoeBnTN

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
  • Karma 13
  • Hillside Leader
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2014, 04:04:35 PM »
Nate,

A large part of the basic answer is the fact that the Angus breed has a broader gene pool and much greater numbers.  With their CAB program and other marketing they have found ways to effectively utilize and market cattle of many diverse types and traits. 

What for me would be important to know is, for those cattle with the highest marbling potential, what impact does that have on other traits like muscling, growth rate and size, feed efficiency, etc. as many of these are antagonistic.  So can these Angus cattle with the ability to grade Prime also produce carcasses with acceptable muscling and external fat, while converting at an economically viable rate or are we talking about 1050 lb. steers with 9" REA? One thing that previous data has shown is that our cattle can compete across almost all breeds when put on a constant end point basis (i.e. 1250 lb, 16 months old steers with .5 in fat).

I'm glad you raised the question -- it's an issue we need to look at and something the breed should pay attention to.  Good luck in your search.

The other thing to keep in mind, due to numbers, is that Angus breed has far more 2-3 frames (and they had more 8-10 frames when we were all liking them big), has more genetic mutations, more high WW and YW cattle, etc.  No matter what trait your looking for (outside color) the Angus breed will have more.  That's not an indictment on Shorthorns, it's just a reality.


Offline JoeBnTN

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
  • Karma 13
  • Hillside Leader
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2014, 04:11:58 PM »
Right, I realize that- but Sue's point was to imply the sister mates out of yg1 or 2 cattle would mature larger than she would prefer.  I was just curious the avg live weight of cattle that grade yg1 or 2.
Ryan,

To some degree their weight would depend on how they were fed and managed.  I was part of a USDA project that proved that across type (frame and muscle) feeding and management was responsible for more than 50% of the outcome.  By manipulation of feeding time and energy level we could "burn up" the later maturing larger cattle and get them to an acceptable YG, QG and slaughter weight.  At the same time, by "slow walking" the little early maturing ones, we could stretch them into a similar category.  The biggest variables were time and financial considerations and neither the larger cattle or the earlier maturing cattle excelled in total $ return.


Offline -XBAR-

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3457
  • Karma 170
  • SASKVALLEY ALAMO 8A
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2014, 04:44:17 PM »
Right, I realize that- but Sue's point was to imply the sister mates out of yg1 or 2 cattle would mature larger than she would prefer.  I was just curious the avg live weight of cattle that grade yg1 or 2.
Ryan,

To some degree their weight would depend on how they were fed and managed.  I was part of a USDA project that proved that across type (frame and muscle) feeding and management was responsible for more than 50% of the outcome.  By manipulation of feeding time and energy level we could "burn up" the later maturing larger cattle and get them to an acceptable YG, QG and slaughter weight.  At the same time, by "slow walking" the little early maturing ones, we could stretch them into a similar category.  The biggest variables were time and financial considerations and neither the larger cattle or the earlier maturing cattle excelled in total $ return.

Makes sense.  I went to a feedlot a 2 summers ago and they were feeding Holstein steers and commercial steers all the same ration which was over 50% roughage.  The commentator made several references to the Holsteins taking so long to finish and faulted them for how big they were they finally did get enough cover.  I couldn't understand why they wouldn't put the steins on a much higher energy ration than the beef calves.  Dairy calves can and do grade as good as anything- but they have to be fed right.  I've finished out Holsteins that were fat as a tick and ready to kill at 1100lbs.  But they were on free choice whole corn feeders and a protein/rumensin supplement for 7 months.   --I can't imagine what the COG was--  And that's where you run into the financial consideration you're talking about, whats the cost of gain on a Stein that grades high choice but only converted an 80% corn ration at 10:1?   The more I think about it the more my head spins.  There are so many variables to take into account- most importantly grid spreads. 

Offline sue

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1906
  • Karma 90
    • View Profile
    • www.lakesidecattle.com
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2014, 06:29:42 PM »
Nate,
I said this in a private message today and to you before over the phone:

You are soon to be in the drivers seat for Purebred and Shorthorn/Angus composites Bull sales with real data to back em !  Why do we buy bulls without it?
Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline Okotoks

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3078
  • Karma 122
  • Diamond Belvedere 29B
    • View Profile
    • Diamond Shorthorns
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2014, 08:25:52 AM »
What bull or bulls are at the top of the breed for marbling?  Birthweight needs to be reasonable (less than 95), docility needs to be excellent, moderate growth, capable of siring a high percentage of prime calves (choice is not good enough to qualify).  A more terminal animal, maternal traits would be nice but not necessary.  Ideas?
This is also something I have also been trying to identify. We have used The Grove Kookaburra W735 and have a couple of ET bull calves by him. He is a trait leader in Australia for BW and CE, milk as well as for Ribeye and Marbling. Accuracies in these traits are 83 to 95%.
We also have a QH Questing DSTNY OQ11 bull calf(95 lb BW recip is a black commercial cow)
DSTNY is in the top 2% of the breed for marbling and top 1% for REA, top 1% for MCE and top 3% for MCE. His BW and CE however are at the bottom of the breed. We have actually had 4 calves by him and never had a calving issue. If everything goes well all three of these calves will see service in a commercial herd that retains ownersip on the steers to slaughter. Identifying animals that are good across all traits is a challenge.

Offline -XBAR-

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3457
  • Karma 170
  • SASKVALLEY ALAMO 8A
    • View Profile
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2014, 09:37:35 AM »
Why do we buy bulls without it?

The data only makes them predictable, not necessarily superior- with data on so few, it gives no insight as to the quality of the individual relative to the quality of the breed as a whole; only to the quality of the individual relative to other individuals who data has also been submitted on. 

JTM

  • Guest
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2014, 10:46:41 AM »
I'm most familiar with Western Canadian genetics herds like ourselves, Crooked Post, Eionmor, Glenford, Horseshoe Creek, Northern as well as many others. 

I would think that A&T Renegade would be a bull that would have outstanding marbling due to how his sire was bred and selected for. He definitely has the BW from what JTM has been posting.
Thanks Jaimie and you are right on with your prediction. Renegade was scanned in a group of 12 bulls at A&T. He was number one with a 115 ratio and 11.0 adj. Rib Eye Area. He had the most rump fat among all the bulls and was second in Rib Fat.  % IM Fat he had a 96 ratio at 3.48 adj. We were very happy with the results.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 11:27:37 AM by JTM »

Offline Okotoks

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3078
  • Karma 122
  • Diamond Belvedere 29B
    • View Profile
    • Diamond Shorthorns
Re: ? for the Shorthorn Experts.
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2014, 10:51:09 AM »
Why do we buy bulls without it?

The data only makes them predictable, not necessarily superior- with data on so few, it gives no insight as to the quality of the individual relative to the quality of the breed as a whole; only to the quality of the individual relative to other individuals who data has also been submitted on.
I think this is a very important point. There are great cattle out there that have not had the data collected. From a marketing stand point it's important to have the numbers but do you really want to discount cattle that might be better. We are using a bull this year with no data but his calves so far look to be above average, time will tell but unfortunately it takes a lot of time.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
5 Replies
4359 Views
Last post June 14, 2007, 01:06:28 PM
by genes
7 Replies
6837 Views
Last post March 30, 2014, 09:45:22 AM
by Okotoks
6 Replies
4860 Views
Last post November 15, 2007, 10:36:35 PM
by gocanes719
3 Replies
2858 Views
Last post November 16, 2007, 01:35:50 PM
by OH Breeder
14 Replies
5965 Views
Last post November 02, 2011, 08:56:07 PM
by DCC show cattle

Powered by EzPortal

SteerPlanet Designed Websites

SteerPlanet Designed Websites

Steer Planet Classifieds & Auctions

Breeder Directory