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Author Topic: Frame scores - how small is too small?  (Read 18949 times)

Offline justintime

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2012, 11:59:40 PM »
[
As far as nobody bragging about the money they save on feed, it's because that's a flawed perception. I proved it mathematically previously, but maybe you missed it. If you have animals that actually perform, you can't feed them too much. To summarize, feed efficiency varies between animals from worst to best by only about 10%. If you have average animals then the best ones on the planet beat yours by only 5% and feed efficiency is only a moderately heritable trait. So there is not much difference between animals or breeds. Using .14 cents a pound feed,  MARC data on feed efficiency, 1.98 per pound last week in NE, and a 500 pound steer to eat your feed, every dollar of feed you put into him returns you $3.50. The more he eats the more you make. You don't SAVE money on feed, you leave money on the table by not feeding and not utilizing genetics  that gain weight at a high rate. If feeder prices weren't so high, this wouldn't be the case, but they are.

I have zero problem with the type of cattle you raise or Lovings or the Cartwrights or whomever.  That environment in KS maybe can't support anything else other than mediocre performance. But there are other places that can. The more they weigh the more they pay and the sooner they weigh it the more they pay. There are few production scenarios where that is not true.



Thank you, thank you, thank you for making these comments. If it was possible to agree more than 100% with these comments I would. This is  exactly how it works. I fed cattle for many years, and you make money on cattle that gain!  We kept accurate pen records on the pounds of feed into the bunks and the pounds coming out of the pens, and it was always the highest gaining cattle that made you the most money. Every time!  We used to compare the feed going into the high gaining pens and the lower gaining pens, and there honestly wasn't that much difference. I do not remember a feedout where a moderate gaining pen made more than a higher gaining pen.
I think most everyone likes cows that can stay in good condition. That has  a lot more to do with body shape than it does frame score. of course there are limits to frame or any other trait, but we do not need to downsize to when these cattle are no earthly good for anything. I will never understand that when a trend changes, there are a group of peoople that run as fast as they can in the direction of that change. When the pendulum swings in another direction, they take off in that direction.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline sue

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2012, 05:58:52 AM »



    Best of Luck Lovings really a great set of bulls, very uniform in type !
Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2012, 08:02:25 AM »
 Here is what I know about the Lovings that might address some of the concerns some people may have about their cattle.
 First of all they are honorable people the kind you can make a handshake deal with and know that they will keep their end of the bargain.As to the efficiency of their cattle, they have retained ownership on all their steers  for several years and consistently have the lowest cost of gain out of every pen fed at a major feed yard out in Kansas.If you read the catalog you know that despite the extreme heat of this past summer they came up with only a very few opens.
 They sell most of their bulls to reputation ranches,some of them have been written up in magazines like Drovers or Beef,that doesn't make them better,just shows they are doing something that others might consider to be of interest.Maybe most important of all they are good business people and they listen to what their customers needs are as opposed to telling them what they need.Their view of the business is long term not short sighted.
Gary Kaper

Offline justintime

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2012, 09:03:19 AM »
I have the upmost respect for the Loving program. i met Marty many years ago, and it was clear from that first meeting that this was a guy who knew what he wanted in his herd, and I think he has been very susscessful in accomplishing that. How can you argue with a program that is working ( well, on second thought there seems to be lots who will argue about some of the most successful programs in the breed... I happen to not be one of them). I think any program that can produce a product and survive doing it, deserves a lot of respect, regardless whether you like the product yourself or not. As I have said before on here, anyone can buy from the programs that produce what you think is best for your herd.

Like Gary has said, the Lovings are honorable people and they have a track record that you have to admire. When I think of this program, the first thing that comes into my mind is consistency
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2012, 11:56:14 AM »



    Best of Luck Lovings really a great set of bulls, very uniform in type !

Very uniform group, definitely a program that offers some useful bulls. (thumbsup)

here's a link to the catalogue
http://www.lovingfarms.com/Forms/catalog2012.2.pdf


Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2012, 01:36:48 PM »
I maybe should have been more specific in my original post. Is there a realist place for a 3.25 frame score bull (several) in a bull sale geared towards commercial cattlemen acrossed the U.S. in a breed other than the low lines? Honestly, the data that goes with these bulls is pretty disappointing. Most of the BW's are at very best breed average, WW's are very minimal and YW's are dismall. To me ( and this is strictly my oppinion) these are not moderate cattle, they are small framed, poor doing cattle that are being marketed as "moderate, calving ease" bulls. The thing that concerns me is that I am seeing more and more of these type of bulls being offered in sales all acrossed the country.
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Offline justintime

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2012, 02:03:28 PM »
I maybe should have been more specific in my original post. Is there a realist place for a 3.25 frame score bull (several) in a bull sale geared towards commercial cattlemen acrossed the U.S. in a breed other than the low lines? Honestly, the data that goes with these bulls is pretty disappointing. Most of the BW's are at very best breed average, WW's are very minimal and YW's are dismall. To me ( and this is strictly my oppinion) these are not moderate cattle, they are small framed, poor doing cattle that are being marketed as "moderate, calving ease" bulls. The thing that concerns me is that I am seeing more and more of these type of bulls being offered in sales all acrossed the country.


IMO, there is a place for a breed like the Lowline, as they offer solid genetics for a niche market in the beef industry. But IMO, there really is NO place for a 3.25 frame bull in any other breed.... period! I really struggle to accept 4.5 frame bulls in this business, and probably this is because I remember how long it took to move a herd away towards better performance. The beef industry does not have to have 3.25 frame bulls to achieve calving ease or fleshing ability. In many cases a 3.25 frame bull may be harder calving than many bigger framed bulls. I was told, just the other day, that the worst calving issues this farm had, was back when they were still using genetics from the 50s and 60s with bulls that were 3.5 frames and  their heads were as wide as they were long.
 As I have mentioned on here before, I basically totally changed many of my opinions of what good cattle needed to have and be, after feeding cattle to slaughter for a few years. In my case, I learned that many of my " perceptions" of what a good trait was, were proven wrong in the feedlot.... and I am not afraid to admit it. I think there are lots of breeders who have maybe fed a few cattle to show, but who have never followed their own product through, that have the same ideals I had. I can think of no economical reason anyone in the commercial sector could justify using 3.25 frmae bulls... even in desert conditions.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline WKYIronMike

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2012, 07:08:41 PM »
I'll go with a 5.5 to a 6.5 frame. I like them to be a 6 - 6.5 mostly. I don't want a midget and I don't want a tower neither!

Offline leanbeef

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2012, 07:39:31 PM »
Clearly, we can debate the issue of frame size on and on, and everybody has an opinion. My question is, "Why do we argue over whether small framed or large framed cattle are better?" It's obvious to me that extremes are NOT the answer for lots of reasons, and as an industry, frame is clearly a matter of optimum...not maximum and not minimum. Not big...not little...middle sized is just right. For cows. For bulls. For feedlot cattle... I think sometimes we all just want to argue our point instead of agreeing on something.

Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2012, 07:56:39 PM »
Just to clarify my original reason for this post - I am concerned about the direction MY breed is headed. This is not to say that I am following the trend myself but it concerns me that the entire breed will get the reputation of being small framed, low performing animals. RW
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Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2012, 08:07:16 PM »
Good post leanbeef. JIT you should be a politician. I have never read somebody who plays all sides all the time. God your good. But Im on to you. Now write a 3 page response to how wrong I am and how right and noble you are. You really do have every angle covered. You got any data on all the commercial folks calves you sold bulls to? Im sure they grow well. If your so dedicated to the commercial man, surely you have got some data back on your bulls you sold. I know I sure want JTM to call me and give me as much info as he can on this set of Completes calves in 2012.

if you want a 3.5 frame animal, use a lowline. I think they are good cattle. I dont use dinks and dont use 3000 lb bulls either. Getting to the end point as quickly and as cheap as possible will always be my goal. I think a small framed bull has a place but it shouldnt be the answer to all. 5 to 6 frame IMO is where the optimum should be. When alot of cows are really big and hard doing, a smaller bull will help the next generation immensly. I dont see a huge demand in the future for 3.5 framed bulls. Lowlines have had that covered a long time and cover it well.

You asked a good question Road warrior. I watched a sale on RFD tv today of some black bulls. Not sure of the breed.Black composites maybe? Anyhow, not a one had a yearling weight over 1000, most were in the 750 to 900 and the ww were very avg. 500 lb or so. The bulls still sold well. This ranch was in Colorado and the name eludes me at the moment. I guess there is a market after all. like knabe said, breed em to the size of goats and if somebody buys em, people will breed em.

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2012, 08:17:25 PM »
RW, what do you think about the bull in Genex, Mushrush Lock and Load? 4.7 frame as a yearling. In your opinion is he to small? I sure like that bull. I think he would really click on shorthorns of my ideal type.

Offline PDJ

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2012, 08:18:48 PM »
You asked a good question Road warrior. I watched a sale on RFD tv today of some black bulls. Not sure of the breed.Black composites maybe? Anyhow, not a one had a yearling weight over 1000, most were in the 750 to 900 and the ww were very avg. 500 lb or so. The bulls still sold well. This ranch was in Colorado and the name eludes me at the moment. I guess there is a market after all. like knabe said, breed em to the size of goats and if somebody buys em, people will breed em.
TGC, I saw part of that same sale.  What really bothered me (unless I'm missing what scr stands for) was that a lot of these bulls had scrotal measurements between 28 and 32.  Not only wasn't impressed with their performance, but would be scared of their daughters reproductive ability.

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2012, 08:34:17 PM »
PDJ,that was a eye opener for me for sure. They must have been raised on sagebrush and thorns because they still sold well. It reminded me of a Pharo type deal but even less performance. I guess those bulls must breed for years and years lol.

Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Frame scores - how small is too small?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 08:50:56 PM »
RW, what do you think about the bull in Genex, Mushrush Lock and Load? 4.7 frame as a yearling. In your opinion is he to small? I sure like that bull. I think he would really click on shorthorns of my ideal type.
For my herd yes. A WW in the 400s doesn't really work for me either. I understand that the enviroment probably had some effect on the WW but after going 5 months in our critical grass growing season (june 3 to sept 23) with only 3/10 of rain, I think our enviroments may have been similiar this year. My first calf heifers weaned off bigger calves than he was at weaning. 95% of my bull buying customers sell their calves right off the cows in the fall. If I can offer them a bull that will gain them 50 to 100 pounds more at weaning/selling than the Lock and Load bull (strictly using him as your example) it is pretty much a no brainer for them. I guess I am looking to stay out of the "mini me's" and maybe go a little bigger than the average......looking down the road so to speak. Here is an example of a bull I bought last sale season to use in this situation. His Reg # is 1372419. His BW EPD is probably too high for most people and he is certainly not a heifer bull. But I think he has a place as a breeding piece in our program. RW
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