Herd Bulls - I'll show... if you show yours

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Chap

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As the discussion hightens about which AI sires to use, lets see what actually gets to walk the pasture after the "Fantasy" matings take place.
1) CNS Exclusive - RCC Headliner x SS Miss Break K2 (Perfection)
2) CNS Cashman - CNS Dream On x SS Miss Break K2 (Perfection)
3) Triple Threat (SVCC Mr Covino 32M)  - Covino III x Yardley Revere) AMA 323068
 

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red

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this is Jake in his working clothes. Was told by a judge that he'd never amount to much as a bull. He's out of my Rose cow & Easy (Elmo x Witchdoctor)

Red
 

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Chap

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red, nice looking bull.  what are birth weights like.  I assume pretty decent considering his sire.
 

red

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Thanks!
birth weights are about 85 pounds. Some bigger, some smaller. He was big at birth but she was 10 days over & very, very well conditioned. She was shown at Louisville in Novemeber & we thought about taking her to Denver but due date was too close so she was fed almost to that point.
He puts out some really nice steers.

Red
 

SWMO

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Carthage MO
Looks like a real maine nice to see a good red and white one for a change.  If it EVER quits raining long enough I'll post a pic of our habanero x calberta paydirt bull.  He's solid red.
 

red

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he could have been dual registered as an appendix Shorthorn too but we just never did.
here are some of his calves from last year. Just out of commercial cows.
Red

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cattlejunky

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indiana
Nice Bulls Chap!!!  You too Red.  Here is ours.  He is a 3 year old now.  Pics are from last Spring. He is an Irish Whiskey out of Farmer's 15 B cow.
 

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chambero

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We are running 13 bulls right now, most of which I've never pictured.  A couple of our best ones I haven't bothered to picture.  Here are a few:

Cattle028.jpg

Just under 3 year old Lifeline x Angus bull purchased from Kris Black.  We bought 2, this is the lesser one, but he is starting to fill out nice. 

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This is a Meyer son we are using.  Photo from a little over a year ago.

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This is a Cunia son out of Foreplay's dam in his later years.  We just got rid of him about a month ago.

 

red

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Nice bulls of all!
Chambero, really like your set-up. Would like to see more pictures of it sometime!

Red
 

SWMO

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Chambero  Where's the mud.  What we wouldn't give for our pens to look like yours right now.  Short calves and short people are in danger of getting lost. :D
 

red

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SWMO said:
Chambero  Where's the mud.  What we wouldn't give for our pens to look like yours right now.  Short calves and short people are in danger of getting lost. :D

same w/ short legged dogs!!! My last calf has a bum back leg & we still haven't let her out of the calving pen. just feel the muck would be too hard on her.

Red
 

justintime

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Great lookin' bulls Chambero!! Red your herd bull looks like he is leaving some really good calves. Here is one of my herd bulls. Wolf Willow Major Leroy 1M is  shown here this morning. He is dreaming of green grass, but it may be a ways off yet, as our snow is now almost gone and it is still very dry here. We sold the world rights in Leroy to Semex International and he is being marketed around the world now.
 

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knabe

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Hey JIT,  nice bull.

i've commented on this before about your cows and their spring of rib directly behind their shoulders and how good they area.  this bull doesn't seem to be sprung there as much as some of your cows.  what are your feelings about just this one trait and how it is passed on?

is this simply an area easily hidden by fat when exposed to changes in feed?  i haven't seen enough real world pictures to get a handle on this area, as it is obviously one of the areas covered up by hair in show cattle.
 

chambero

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While we are "sharing", let's up the ante and disclose what we pay for bulls.  Ours have to go together in one pasture for about 8 months and "things" just happen be it fighting, etc. 

For example, we bought two Strictly Business sons in 2004.  One was struck by lightning out in the pasture a week after we got him home.  Or worst of all, we had a bull (paid $4K) that sired a class winning steer in Houston in 04 and the Champion Angus steer the next year in 2005.  Before we knew how his calves were really going to do, he broke both back legs coming out of a stock tank in February 04 right after finishing his second breeding season.  The bank was steep and all we could figure out was he butted heads with another bull that was up above him and because of the steep bank all of his weight was on his back legs and they broke like green tree limbs.  We still cringe thinking about it and still look at the tank first right as we drive in the "bull pasture" afraid there will be another one laying there.

So we don't spend a ton of money on bulls.

Bull in first picture - $2400

03 Meyer Son - $2000

Cunia Son - $4,000

$4500 is the most we've ever paid on a bull (an Angus).  I think we've got some pretty good bulls without breaking the bank.  You just have to be patient at the sales and most importantly - know what you don't want.  When I go look through bulls at a sale, I don't pick the ones I like.  I pick the ones I don't want.  Then we see which ones that will work that we can afford.  We may never have a "great" one, but a lot of our average ones throw middle of the road females that I can breed to whatever AI bulls I want and their steers do just fine in the feedlots + you get a few that do good as steers.  Honestly, I can't tell you the % of show-quality steers out of AI bulls on our cows is any better than those out of our herd bulls.
 

chambero

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That's the best kind.  We usually don't want to mess with having one to have to feed out.
 

justintime

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Knabe, I know what you are talking about. I like to see cattle that have some thickness behind their shoulder, as I find these cattle are easier fleshing. Tight hearted cattle seem to always be  tough looking especially here where we live with our winters being so nasty at times. I think the heart region is one of the most important areas in an animals body. The heart and lungs both function in this area.... and these two organs are kinda important to life itself.... so they better have some  room to work in.

In regards to Leroy, I think he has adequate thickness behind his shoulder, as he is about the easiest fleshing bull we have ever had. What I think this picture shows is that he does have some shoulder, which sometimes make them look like they are a little narrow in the heart region. The real discussion should be about the angle of the shoulder rather than the amount of the shoulder. I also think that in order to determine whether a bull has too  much shoulder, you have to learn what the proper angle of this region is supposed to look like. It could well be that what you think is too much shoulder is just an indication of a bull with better than average muscle.

In some ways, I think that many really good bulls are overlooked because people think they will be hard calving cow killers because they have some shoulder. This can be the case if the angle of the shoulder is wrong. A few years ago, I saw 75 lb Red Angus calves being delivered at a neighbours farm by c- section. When I saw the bull he was using, I understood part of the problem. This bull was very straight shouldered and also very wide between the eyes.

We all need to remember that muscle is added proportionally to all parts of an animal. What this means is that if you are selecting for improvement in muscle in one area of the animal, you will also be adding muscle to all other areas of an animal. This also means that an animal with a larger ribeye area, for example, will have more shoulder than an animal with less ribeye area. Again, remember the angle of the shoulder can change how this looks as well. The shoulder is the only major joint in the animal that is not held in place by a ball and socket joint. All that holds the shoulder in place are two large muscle masses  on each side of the shoulder  blade. So.... if you try to add some muscle to your cattle, you automatically will add more muscle to major muscles that are on each side of the shoulder. I am sure that some pretty good bulls oftentimes are overlooked because they are considered to be too heavy shouldered. In reality, some of these bulls may not calve any harder than a bull that appears to have less shoulder. In my opinion, this is why we are seeing so many feminine looking herd sires in ALL breeds. Many of these bulls look more like steers than they do bulls. Personally, I think some of these steery looking bulls are not producing daughters that are near as fertile, or have near as much longevity and total maternal traits as those bulls that are masculine and look like they have been on steroids. Masculinity does not translate necessarily into hard calving. Some of the worst " cow killer" sires I have seen have had literally no shoulder to speak of, had refined heads, and shoulders that were laid  into their bodies. These "nice shouldered" bulls had a very poor angle to their shoulder, and just had less meat in them, and this made people think they would calve easily. Wrong!!
 

farmboy

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heres a pale face x angus, stays nicley conditioned on grass, throws LOW BW's and they grow like a weed and have some hair to em, he may also be for sale this spring
 

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justintime

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In regards to prices paid... I purchased Major Leroy for $3000, at 3 years of age. I have attached a picture of an X Ray Vision son I am using on our black cows. I purchased him as a calf at $2000 . He is both TH and PHA free by the way. I will also attach a picture of a bull that did a very good job here that I purchased in a sale in Illinois at $800. This bull is WF Player x and sisters that sold for several times this amount in the sale. It always amazes me how many times the females from a flush will bring mega dollars, while the boys are virtually worthless.
 

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