I initially thought online sales were great, and from an ability to view multitudes of cattle they still are a great resource. But....Online sales have propped up the show cattle industry with inflated prices and false reporting to the point where the reality of the market has been lost. No better than a subsidized market, yet the subsidies are false. How many "sold" cattle have been offered for lease and sale for pennies on the dollar after being "sold" online for substantial money. It's a saturated market, for an industry where success is defined by your ability to hide faults with hair. Every dispersal is followed by 1,000 people trying to sell the progeny from cows they bought that the same cattle big name producers would have been marketing and finding out they can't get a bid. I digress, I momentarily forgot that perception is reality and truth an unwelcome perspective. Ok, back to reality. I mean, well, a version of it...or whatever the inter web tells me is true.
I officially call BS
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knabe
Well-known member
Really?
Bradenh
Well-known member
BroncoFan said:
turning grass into beef
Well-known member
Canadian Western Agribition had their first club calf sale this year. The Western Producer (Western Canada's weekly agricultural newspaper) wrote an article about it. Here is a quote.
"Club calves are designed for shows and their appearance, not for their carcass qualities or other traits that the commercial industry wants."
Any time you have an industry that is just for show (perception) then PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING. If people can get other people to believe that cattle are trading hands for over inflated prices then they will do that. People that can actually judge for themselves what makes a "good one", what ever a good one is in their opinion, will not be swayed by perception. Someone once said "a fool and his money are soon parted".
"Club calves are designed for shows and their appearance, not for their carcass qualities or other traits that the commercial industry wants."
Any time you have an industry that is just for show (perception) then PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING. If people can get other people to believe that cattle are trading hands for over inflated prices then they will do that. People that can actually judge for themselves what makes a "good one", what ever a good one is in their opinion, will not be swayed by perception. Someone once said "a fool and his money are soon parted".
b_kackley
Well-known member
I agree that the internet has made it easier to falsify a big sale, but it happened before that. I have seen cattle sell at an auction and knew darn well it was a set up. It wasn't a buy back it was a lie. The person buying paid the commision on 20,000 plus a fair price to the seller. It was much less than 20k. It was done to inflate the price of available embryos and siblings.
On the net you do have to watch who you deal with very carefully. This site is the perfect place to ask people about their buying experiences as well as the specifics of who they dealt with. Personally I would have trouble buying online unless I was able to see the animal, or had a good reference for the seller. I would also want the right to send it back if it was misrepresented. Bought a truck on e-bay this summer and flew to florida to pick it up. If it had been misrepresented I would have flew home instead of driving.
On the net you do have to watch who you deal with very carefully. This site is the perfect place to ask people about their buying experiences as well as the specifics of who they dealt with. Personally I would have trouble buying online unless I was able to see the animal, or had a good reference for the seller. I would also want the right to send it back if it was misrepresented. Bought a truck on e-bay this summer and flew to florida to pick it up. If it had been misrepresented I would have flew home instead of driving.
Wow, what a thread we have going here!!!
First off, I don't believe the high end numbers AT ALL! None of them. My definition of "high end" has nothing to do with a price, it has to do with what makes sense. If a steer is being sold, and I call that steer at around $5,000...then when he is in that $15,000 range I don't buy it. I am by no means an expert, but I have a pretty good idea what these things are going to bring, give or take say 20%.
I think that the reason many of these numbers are artificially inflated has to do with the resale side. Say you are a trader and you have a family that you do a lot of business with. This family works hard, and does well in the show ring. This family has the money to be doing this, and are more than willing to let you just hook them up with a couple steers. So now you have to put 2 steers in their barn for $20,000. How do you think that family is going to feel if they see that you paid $10,000 for the pair? So, you run the pair up to say...$17,500, pay the seller the $10,000, and now your family feels a whole lot better about it!
As far as buying them sight unseen, that deal works both ways. If you trust the guy on the other end of the phone, or you have someone that you DO trust that has a relationship with the seller...then I don't really see a problem with it. A couple years ago, I had a very trusted friend make a call to a guy that was having an online sale. I didn't know the guy, but I liked the look of a couple of his steers. I just wanted to make sure that I was getting an HONEST opinion of the cattle. I had my friend ask about a couple steers, and ALSO...ask which one is the sleeper because he didn't picture well. My friend called me back and said the absolute hands down sleeper of the sale was Lot #X. I didn't even pick that steer in my top 10. He was sound and thick, but just didn't have any "pizzazz". We went with the advice of the seller, bought the steer for 1/2 what I figured we would have to pay, and he ended up being the best steer we have ever owned.
But to the point of the post, NO I DO NOT BELIEVE THESE PRICES.
First off, I don't believe the high end numbers AT ALL! None of them. My definition of "high end" has nothing to do with a price, it has to do with what makes sense. If a steer is being sold, and I call that steer at around $5,000...then when he is in that $15,000 range I don't buy it. I am by no means an expert, but I have a pretty good idea what these things are going to bring, give or take say 20%.
I think that the reason many of these numbers are artificially inflated has to do with the resale side. Say you are a trader and you have a family that you do a lot of business with. This family works hard, and does well in the show ring. This family has the money to be doing this, and are more than willing to let you just hook them up with a couple steers. So now you have to put 2 steers in their barn for $20,000. How do you think that family is going to feel if they see that you paid $10,000 for the pair? So, you run the pair up to say...$17,500, pay the seller the $10,000, and now your family feels a whole lot better about it!
As far as buying them sight unseen, that deal works both ways. If you trust the guy on the other end of the phone, or you have someone that you DO trust that has a relationship with the seller...then I don't really see a problem with it. A couple years ago, I had a very trusted friend make a call to a guy that was having an online sale. I didn't know the guy, but I liked the look of a couple of his steers. I just wanted to make sure that I was getting an HONEST opinion of the cattle. I had my friend ask about a couple steers, and ALSO...ask which one is the sleeper because he didn't picture well. My friend called me back and said the absolute hands down sleeper of the sale was Lot #X. I didn't even pick that steer in my top 10. He was sound and thick, but just didn't have any "pizzazz". We went with the advice of the seller, bought the steer for 1/2 what I figured we would have to pay, and he ended up being the best steer we have ever owned.
But to the point of the post, NO I DO NOT BELIEVE THESE PRICES.
BroncoFan said:
I am not one that will ONLY buy steers out of certain bulls.
I will however buy a steer that I may have passed on if I know what bull it is out of. For me, a great example is Unstoppable. Some of the Unstoppable calves may not show the kind of thickness that I would like to see when they are young, but we have fed them because of the way that they continue to thicken up while staying sound.
I agree that a good calf is a good calf regardless of the sire. The point that I am making is that a "fairly" good calf might eventually be a great calf, BECAUSE of his sire.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
Steve123 said:
Initiate the conversation. I think you're going to be amazed at how receptive they'll be. The allure of easy money has a very strong appeal.
As far as the high dollar animals, I think they are often presold for a set amount and then run through the auction and run up, to bring attention to the outfit selling them.
As far as the seller running up the price on you, it happens but you the buyer are in control of the situation, stop bidding. Now if you think the animal is worth 8, and you really won it at 5 and they, the seller, think you will go to 8 and run it up, is it cheating. If you think it is worth 5 and they think it is worth 8, you stop at 5, they bid it up, you don't bite, they lose. Now if they call you later and say hey the buyer who out bid you flaked, will you still buy it for 5, then you have a pretty good idea who your dealing with.
The best way to avoid it is buying calves at a set price, but there are drawbacks there as well, if they think their stock is worth more than you do.
As far as the seller running up the price on you, it happens but you the buyer are in control of the situation, stop bidding. Now if you think the animal is worth 8, and you really won it at 5 and they, the seller, think you will go to 8 and run it up, is it cheating. If you think it is worth 5 and they think it is worth 8, you stop at 5, they bid it up, you don't bite, they lose. Now if they call you later and say hey the buyer who out bid you flaked, will you still buy it for 5, then you have a pretty good idea who your dealing with.
The best way to avoid it is buying calves at a set price, but there are drawbacks there as well, if they think their stock is worth more than you do.
We had our first online sale this year. To be honest going into it I was scared to death because i never knew how many of these sales have real bids. I see a lot of terrible cattle bring pretty good money in live auctions and online sales. In the end, 10 of our 12 calves sold. 6 steers averaged around 2,300 and the 4 heifers that ended up selling averaged around 3,000. All real money exchanging hands. I think our numbers were a lot less than a lot of sales 'say' they averaged, but they all went to real buyers and some good families across the midwest. I do agree that these sales are out of control and its damaging to young kids thinking the club calf business is easy money when they see what some of these calves bring and they grow up thinking thats a good business to get in when in reality maybe it isnt.
J
JTM
Guest
It's obvious we have an integrity problem in the cattle auction area. Kudos to cowman for bringing it up and exposing the truth. These sales have built in fake bidders to get to a minimum bid on each animal set by the seller before hand. I would be alright with it if they just told people that was going on before the sale. Or begin the bidding at the minimum bid. This can be said about live auctions also.
CAB
Well-known member
I love how once you register for a bidding number that number stays with you so that they can have your past bidding history in a second's notice and get a good idea how far that they can run up your bid if they want to. I would rather they take your bid and if after the sale has closed they don't want to accept the bid just call and say I can't take that kind of money for this calf.
J
JTM
Guest
The problem with that is the laws and procedures that are supposed to be followed with auctions. Auctioneers are licensed and suppose to uphold a high level of integrity and when a sale is final, a sale is final. I put some calves in a sale a few years back and I made sure beforehand that there would be no fake bids or buys. I watched the sale and thought they were sold but come to find out they weren't sold. I wasn't very happy when I had to go pick them up. I could have told told the online auction company to give me my money but I didn't.CAB said:
Gargan
Well-known member
I bid on cattle about every week on online sales, tho I rarely ever buy one ( maybe 1 in 30). I just bid what I think is a good buy (usually the starting price or a couple $100 more), and leave it at that. I just wonder how many head I bid on that are floored at say $3000, don't sell and when seller asks auction co what the last real bid was they say, $1800.. Could be good for barn blindness
CAB
Well-known member
I think that you still have to be disciplined yourself to know what you think the lot is worth and set your limit according to the value that you have accessed the calf being.
I have had the last bid B4 and received the call saying that they couldn't take the money and then found out later that the heifer ended up going to X breeder and is on their sale. I'm just like oh well, just won't deal with pretty much anyone that has been involved with that sale.
I have had the last bid B4 and received the call saying that they couldn't take the money and then found out later that the heifer ended up going to X breeder and is on their sale. I'm just like oh well, just won't deal with pretty much anyone that has been involved with that sale.
