Is he stout enough for you?

Native bush pasture Lolol does anyone really believe all the sunshine he keeps blowing up our asses?  I mean for reals, Is there even one person out there that believes this ****?

“Wedged in the chute and hardly got him out” lol  sounds like a projection of what to expect from his calves when not breeding him to 2000 pound cows (lol)

Hey Grant why have you blurred the pixelation so that the clarity is equivalent to that of a 1980s f’n Polaroid? There’s not even a cell phone much less a stand alone camera on the market today that will even take such a poor quality picture.

Anybody interested in these bulls would be a fool to not request the unedited picture in high-resolution first!

Buyer beware 

Heavens to Mergatroid XBAR-dont implode on us-who can exchange sarcastic and sometimes unscientific, and or unwarranted and possibly impolite conjecture with if you go off the air? And its cruel fate that I am somewhat swayed and in partial agreement with your view on this subject-ONCE A REDNECK ALLWAYS A REDNECK O0

XBAR... your comments do not deserve a comment, but I would suggest you come and see Cruiser for yourself. The picture is not very good, but I guarantee it is NOT touched in any way. The native bush pasture is about 70 miles east of here on the edge of Moose Mountain Provincal Park. Wow... you are a real piece of work!

Xbar I assume that vanguard didn't work out very well for you? I also have a hard time believing that he came off native pasture looking this way but native pasture up north may not be the same limited resource that we have down here. Besides he looks to me and this is strictly my opinion that he would make a boat load of yield grade 3 and 4 steers. If all of this is actually true and he isn't a fat puffball I really admire his width and volume.

kiblercattle said:

Xbar I assume that vanguard didn't work out very well for you?    I also have a hard time believing that he came off native pasture looking this way but native pasture up north may not be the same limited resource that we have down here. Besides he looks to me and this is strictly my opinion that he would make a boat load of yield grade 3 and 4 steers. If all of this is actually true and he isn't a fat puffball I really admire his width and volume.

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He ended up being more like a muskrat than a muskox. Notice he still had the lot 12 tag in his ear here from sale dale so this had to be in the first 90 days I owned him as I cut that tag out when I took him to the vet post breeding. (Too find out what the hell was wrong with him).  I can remember Dr Mills,  saying, as he laughed at my expense, literally and figuratively, well Ryan look at those huge furry ears, you can’t bring these Canadian bulls down here and just turn them out.  I knew that myself from the first time he came walking off the trailer (with a bad case of foot rot I might add that cost me another cpl hundred bucks at the vet.  But at the time, after spending 6 grand on him it was tough admitting the reality even to myself. I took him to the sale barn in Durant Ok as long 2 year old.  He weighed about 40lbs less than what he weighed on sale day as a yearling ~1300.  My experience wasn’t unique.  About a year after this, I ran into another SH breeder in Texas at the WHR sale. He said he had imported a Major Leroy son few years before I did and had many of the same terrible experiences.  These cattle may work in an environment where they are drylotted half the year like the cattle are done at horseshoe creek -because they do grow well, the ones you get out alive that is— but for those considering bringing these cattle into a ‘ranch setting’ where theyre left and expected to sustain on their own 10 months out of year- well all I can say is good luck- you’re gonna need it.

If you brought a bull from Canada and just assumed he was going to thrive in the humidity and heat of Texas, I'm not sure you have any place running down someone else's management. My in-laws live in South Dakota and the type and kind of cattle he raises and I raise are very very different.  My cattle tend to do ok heading north but his cattle heading south need extra care every single time.  Just because an animal raised somewhere else needs some extra care to thrive doesn't mean the animal isn't high quality it just means he's bred/designed for a different scenario. So please don't be that guy who says all cattle should thrive In all scenarios because that's just flat not true.

Ryan... I don't know what to even say! Why am I hearing about a case of footrot for the first time now? He certainly did not have footrot when I last saw him in South Dakota. I am sorry that the bull did not adapt to your environment. I have no control of that really. Over the years I have purchased cattle from many parts of North America, and some just don't work here or take at least a year to adjust. I did my best to describe him to you before you purchased him in our sale. I told you that he had a very moderate birth weight and I was expecting him to weigh more at birth. I remember telling you that he may have been born a bit early as his dam was pasture bred and I did not have a breeding date on her. As for the other Leroy son that went to Texas, I have only sold one other one Texas, and he was just over 2 months old when he was sold. The buyer saw him on pasture and fell in love with him. I priced him very reasonably and he bought him and I kept him until February the next year. I have never heard a word from him about this bull and I have seen him several times. I also don't understand why you called me after your first calf crop from Vanguard and you told me you were very pleased with his calves. You never said anything about any issues, nothing about foot rot, and nothing about big BW calves. You even talked about collecting the bull and selling semen. I am sorry this did not work out better for you. I do not think I have done anything to misrepresent this bull and I wish it had worked out better for you. There was nothing in this bull's pedigree to suggest he would be a train wreck for you. I have sold dozens of Leroy sons, most of them to commercial producers, and I have never heard any complaints. One Leroy son sold to a large ranch in Wyoming, and they used him for several years. When the called to replace him, they said they wanted a bull just like the Leroy son they had used. The part of what you have said that bothers me the most is that you are bashing my reputation. I have always tried to be honest and I would never have sold you this bull if I had thought you would have problems like you said. I thought the bull you purchased was a pretty decent bull when he was here. I have no control over anything that happened after he left here and I don't know what happened. I have never had a single calf from Leroy even close to being as big as the monster calf you had. Leroy was used in 50 countries, and I have never heard of any issues like you had. I wish it had worked out differently.

j3cattle said:

If you brought a bull from Canada and just assumed he was going to thrive in the humidity and heat of Texas, I'm not sure you have any place running down someone else's management. My in-laws live in South Dakota and the type and kind of cattle he raises and I raise are very very different.  My cattle tend to do ok heading north but his cattle heading south need extra care every single time.  Just because an animal raised somewhere else needs some extra care to thrive doesn't mean the animal isn't high quality it just means he's bred/designed for a different scenario. So please don't be that guy who says all cattle should thrive In all scenarios because that's just flat not true.

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// Not to change the subject but I might ad Ive seen some very good cattle from your outfit-Hows Blue Moon working out? Great looking calf in the video.He comes off fescue like the cattle here-and the ones in Kansas albeit thin this year seem to adapt to fescue when I bring em back this way Just an FYI

it is a fairly common statement in South Alabama that you can take cattle North but not to bring them South.  I have seen bulls brought South that just never really looked good but there calves out of the local acclimated females did fine and performed.  I think it has to do with grass quality vs quanity for us.  Lots of water in our forage and less nutrient dense.  You can even see this to a degree even within the State of Alabama.  It is especially noticable moving cattle from Black Belt (praire soils) to the Coastal Plains (sandy soils).  i think the best way to bring in genetics
to an area is frozen semen or embryos.  I think prenatal programing is powerful thing. 

I will share an experience of mine with goats.  In  2008, i took goats ( low input, low maintenance herd) from Dothan ( Southeast AL) to Shelby County, AL (just outside Birmingham) they adapted quickly and maintained the low input, low maintenace standard.  I also purchased local goats from low maintence, low input herds in the Shelby County Area.  Both groups performed as well asthe other.

In  2011, moved back home to Washington County, AL (Southwest AL).  The dothan goats and maternal descendents did well.  the shelby county goats and maternal descendents became high maintenance and were  culled from the herd by myself and nature.

dothan and washington county are coastal plains soils with bahia, bermuda pastures.  shelby county is a piedmont plateau soils with bermuda, bahia, and fescue pastures.

Certainly Grant can more than adequately defend himself.  However,  I would just make a couple of comments.  I have purchased a few embryos from Grant over the past 5 years,  and my dealings with him have always been entirely satisfying.  He has always been MORE than fair with me,  even when the fault,  if there was one,  was probably mine.  I had two Major Leroy ET bulls here who are no longer on the farm.  Not because there was anything wrong with them,  they just didn't fit my needs and I had another ET bull from Grant who did.   

[/quote]// Not to change the subject but I might ad Ive seen some very good cattle from your outfit-Hows Blue Moon working out? Great looking calf in the video.He comes off fescue like the cattle here-and the ones in Kansas albeit thin this year seem to adapt to fescue when I bring em back this way Just an FYI
[/quote]

The Blue Moon cattle are good cattle. Might be a tick later maturing than the Hidden Treasure or JPj we have used but they're also a nickel bigger and I was afraid we were getting too small so that's a plus in my mind. For being bred the way he is he does a tremendous job keeping them sound and big bellied. Just wouldn't breed him to a real hard one to soften them up. All and all we are very excited about them as cows and think the showheifers could be big league.

That extra shot of size is the next wave of desirable from the shows Ive been able to see-I think he really would have worked on those powerful stout olds chool clubby shorthorns that they dont make anymore-and would moderate the BWS hopefully-or soggy clubbyxCanadian etc.. I would probably shy away from the Solution-Salute-Bloodstone yatta yatta ET Al show pedigrees for the reasons you mentioned. Not saying they are bad-I just think they need fresh genetics-the linebreeding is more or less at the end of the road where they are now-and hes got some of that in his dam O0

j3cattle said:

If you brought a bull from Canada and just assumed he was going to thrive in the humidity and heat of Texas, I'm not sure you have any place running down someone else's management. My in-laws live in South Dakota and the type and kind of cattle he raises and I raise are very very different.  My cattle tend to do ok heading north but his cattle heading south need extra care every single time.  Just because an animal raised somewhere else needs some extra care to thrive doesn't mean the animal isn't high quality it just means he's bred/designed for a different scenario. So please don't be that guy who says all cattle should thrive In all scenarios because that's just flat not true.

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Without prejudice to anyone, I recall an old 'rule-of-thumb' where it is stated that a bull can be bred to as many cows as is his age in months, after the age of 18 months, provided he gets sufficient supplementation to at least hold his condition during the breeding season.
For this very reason I no longer sell bulls under 22 months for breeding, it is always either the breed or the breeder's fault when something goes wrong, never the buyer at fault!
Seems a bit unreasonable that the breeder should hear about it on a public forum without first having had a call from the buyer.

I am sure the HC bulls are well taken care of.  However, there will be many, many opportunities to buy your new bull from the numerous beef expos, on line sales, and on farm sales full of bulls that are far more stuffed, fluffed, puffed, injected, inflated, and just plain loaded than any of the just plain well managed bulls that Grant will sell.  I guarantee most of these "show case" bulls would be lucky to just survive if turned out before an adjustment period.  Ever buy a bull from a testing station?  If you raised hogs, did you ever buy a boar from a testing station?  They used to even tell you up front that they needed an adjustment period.  Fat sells.  Look through the sale catalogs, on line sale listings, and bull sale advertising.  Most of these cattle are FAT, stuffed within inches of their lives.  If they aren't, they won't sell.  Need proof?  Check out the Kohstaedt sale report.  Did you notice the top selling bull?  Check out his photo from the sale where Brian bought him last spring.  Fat sells.  I'm not at all faulting the bull's breeder.  They brought in a bull in his plain clothes and he was not appreciated in them.  I am sorry the HC bull in question did not work for you.  I've purchased a few from several breeders myself in over 60 years of raising Shorthorns that didn't work out.  i do not think it serves a useful purpose to question someone's integrity in a public forum. 

j3cattle said:

If you brought a bull from Canada and just assumed he was going to thrive in the humidity and heat of Texas, I'm not sure you have any place running down someone else's management. My in-laws live in South Dakota and the type and kind of cattle he raises and I raise are very very different.  My cattle tend to do ok heading north but his cattle heading south need extra care every single time.  Just because an animal raised somewhere else needs some extra care to thrive doesn't mean the animal isn't high quality it just means he's bred/designed for a different scenario. So please don't be that guy who says all cattle should thrive In all scenarios because that's just flat not true.

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I think your initial charge is fair and reasonable here. Upon initial consideration, of course I considered the transition in climate.  Like so typical of the sunshine he blows, it was assured that "he sells bulls all over the country and that the bull will do do very good." (Grab ya a pen are start running a tally of how many times you see him use 'very' as a testament to just how good something is  :  Even in the initial post here he rambles on about the 'native bush pastures' in an attempt to accentuate just how easy fleshing this bulldog is.  It's just absurd as the reality is so far from how he presents it here on Steer Planet on a regular basis.  Entertaining historian no doubt,  but full of it when it comes to any accurate appraisal.  Just look at the catalogued picture I bought the bull on as opposed to how he looked upon arrival. --Go back and look--

I've bought bulls from literally all over the country and NONE have fallen apart like this.  In fact, beyond the advice of almost everyone, I gambled again and went back to Western Canada for another bull, this time from Saskvalley Shorthorns. The bull in my avatar, Saskvalley Alamo 8A.  This bull has been, in all regards, one of the best I've ever used.  I pulled 6 of the first 16 calves out of the bull I bought from Grant and had some of the biggest bw calves I've literally ever seen.  I've only pulled 3 calves total in as many breeding season w/ Alamo and the birth weights have all been reasonably consistent (65-85) w/ every other bull of a double handful of other breeds I've used.  Alamo's body condition has never been questionable.  Never once have I had to consider "Do I need to get this bull out of the pond so I can ensure there's some cows getting bred."  There's a reason Western Canadian bulls from Saskvalley, and even Muridale, for that matter, are being used by the most prominent Shorthorn breeders across the country. They're good solid functional bulls that can go out and get the job done all across North America. There's a reason you can't name even one using a bull from the prior mentioned place. 

I certainly agree with you that not all cattle should thrive in all scenarios.  I am a big proponent of specialized systematic crossbreeding so I get it. The primary issue presented here is, again, the frivolous claims in terms of their strengths and weaknesses and if they're so specialized, where exactly these cattle do and do not thrive.  According to JIT---  "These cattle do it all!"   

I challenge to find even one instance where he's used an honest degree of transparency to describe, as to make clear, the limitations w/ these cattle.  If they're so specialized as to need this above and beyond 'extra care to thrive' you speak of, then a disclaimer is certainly warranted in the sale catalogue and in any advertisement.

oakview said:

  I am sorry the HC bull in question did not work for you.  I've purchased a few from several breeders myself in over 60 years of raising Shorthorns that didn't work out.  i do not think it serves a useful purpose to question someone's integrity in a public forum. 

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If not in public, where those potential buyers who have the most to lose would be, then where?

And I think it's exceptionally useful-- what I would have given to have had a heads up that a much higher level of discernment needs to be used here than someone not associated with this racket might commonly expect.

Duncraggan said:

Seems a bit unreasonable that the breeder should hear about it on a public forum without first having had a call from the buyer.

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Surely you give me more credit than that?

Ryan... I have said that I am truly sorry, the bull didn't work for you. I honestly feel I did my best to describe the bull to you prior to you buying him. I always do my best to be honest with any potential bull buyer, because of the importance a herd bull can be in a breeding program. My wife oftentimes tells me that I make too many negative comments about an animal when someone calls me. I would rather be this way that not mention any issues I may know about. I have a good number of repeat customers that come back for new bulls over and over again. They seem happy with how I have treated them. Obviously you are not, and I do not know what I am supposed to do about it. It appears to me that this bull did not work in the environment you placed him in. I don't know why this happens, but it does. If you will remember, the day after you purchased this bull, you phoned me and asked me what I was not telling you?  I asked you what you meant, as I thought I had described this bull accurately. You said I must have not told you everything if you were able to purchase him for $5500. I remember telling you that this was an auction sale and we have no control over what any animal sells for and that in my world, $5500 was a pretty decent price. I told you before you purchased this bull that he had a very moderate birth weight ( I believe he was in the 85-88 lb range), and I told you that I was surprised by how moderate he was, and wondered if he had been born a bit early. As I said in a previous post, I have never ever had any Leroy calves any where close to the BWs you got from Vanguard, and from what you have told me, the big calves must have been born mostly in the second calf crop, because you told me you were happy with the calves you got in the first calf crop.
For you to say that I am a liar and anyone should be very apprehensive to do business with me is a complete insult to me. You have a habit of using public forums to bad mouth other breeders and other bloodlines and I do not think that is a fair way to do business. Just a couple weeks ago, you made some very poor comments( in my opinion) about a young couple here in Canada who purchased the Canadian semen rights in an American bull. They did a pile of research on him prior to buying into him and you decided you should tell them that they had made a bad decision and they were going to have all kinds of calving issues with him. I simply commented that a public forum is no place to make comments like this and you became completely unglued and started to rant on me. I have heard since that you have been blocked from that site, and I had nothing to do with this happening. I don't have any idea who even runs that site.
If you were so unhappy with me, why have I never had a single email or phone call from you about any of this? I would think the best place to discuss this would have been to contact me and we could have discussed this. I most likely would have offered you some kind of settlement, but after the way you have decided to handle this, I don't think that is much of an option. In closing, I will rest my reputation on my lifetime in raising Shorthorns (as well as several other breeds over the years) I have sold literally hundreds of bulls and a many, many females. Our PB Shorthorn herd is now in it's 101st year on this farm, and I highly doubt we would have lasted this long if we treated our customers the way you say I treated you. I have just passed the 2000 mark in embryos I have sold in the past 15 years and they have sold to 12 countries. I think I promote my cattle fairly, but I will never hear you say this. I truly wish the Vanguard bull had worked out better for you. I have had several cases where cattle did not work for me, but I consider this to be a part of raising cattle. Over the years, I have shipped some high dollar females and bulls that did not work here. I put most of the responsibility of these errors on my judgment, and not the person who sold these cattle to me. And if I had a problem, I always contacted the seller and told them, why these cattle did not work. I guess that is what makes you and me different. I have no idea how many more ways I can say that I am sorry this happened and if I had known then, what I know now, this bull would not have never seen your place. 

I thought it looked like he was doing ok from the picture in the herdsire issue of the Shorthorn Country.

This isn't directed toward anybody in particular. Wouldn't it be refreshing if a producer would just admit to how much a critter is eating?  Fat sells and the race is on. Who can get them the fattest on the least? I think we all know better. I'm suppose to believe a bull is in his condition from rough pasture and there is literally a steer stuffer behind him in the picture. I see this all the time. Weaning weight aged at 110 days or whatever then project it forward.

Too many people shooting for extremes instead of just making more cows that are good enough. It's a rarity game instead. Outliers breed outliers and this is what we are producing. To each there own. Not picking on the bull pictured to start this thread, just used it as an example. I am friends with Ryan. I appreciate his bluntness. His goal is to make good shorthorns. Hurting someone's feelings is not on his radar. I put in an order for a bull two years ago. Last year year he flat out said I don't have one good enough for you yet. He wasn't knocking his cattle at all. He wasn't seeing something he thought would fit my eye and what my cows would kick with. How many breeders you know have a chance to sell a bull but don't. And tell you why they don't? Nada. This year he had one born out of Alamo x Goldenrod that he knew from the get go was coming to Ohio. His opinion hasn't wavered. XBAR Endeavor will be breeding cows in Ohio summer 2018.

Ryan may rub you all the wrong way but the breed needs him. He has a hell of a nucleus if ciws and runs them hard. Culls hard and has a good of knowledge on the breed as anyone. This is a business not the Moose lodge. Shorthorns are getting their ass kicked commercially. You want to crack that market, you need folks like Ryan helping to build the product.

JIT you really don't need to apologize you had a bull in a sale-it sounds like you described him in terms of your environment Major Leroy was a huge draw for awhile-and YOU ALWAYS were upfront about his calving "once in awhile there will be a really big one-he is not a heifer bull" etc.-If that"s the bull you sold:and he"s pictured right off the trailer-(NOT 3-4 MONTHS LATER) then he doesn"t really look too sporty and if you had known at that time I think some kind of restitution would have been in order.-DEPENDS how much time elapsed-JMO :THAT"S THE KEY  XBAR-it seems like a few years went by before you came unglued-and I do remember you making positive comments on here about the bull-although that"s a lot of threads ago.So I guess my questions are old news and the same as everybody else's--I have a few cattle left in Southern Kansas and the environment is VERY similar with similar results lost a lot of $ on several--The bull didn"t work-but in any case the SP statute of limitations is certainly up: AND-you have a Canadian bull that DID WORK-although I"m guessing from a somewhat different environment- Sometimes just gotta move on if you didn"t strike while the iron was hot.. O0