Is it possible?

Yesterday had a cow have twins,she is a fleckvieh x red angus (red baldy) that we bought at a dispersal  in dec. all cows had been bred to either a red angus bull or a full fleck bull.One calf is an all dark red bull calf the other lighter red with a white face an goggles and a heifer. Is it possible that each bull could have bred her and if so is the heifer a true freemartin?She had them thruogh the night and when dad went to the barn in the morning one was laying with the cow and dried off the other was in the middle of the pen in the sloppy muck,spent most of yesterday warming calf up and drenching with colostrum don't know if she wil make it.

ROMAX said:

Yesterday had a cow have twins,she is a fleckvieh x red angus (red baldy) that we bought at a dispersal  in dec. all cows had been bred to either a red angus bull or a full fleck bull.One calf is an all dark red bull calf the other lighter red with a white face an goggles and a heifer. Is it possible that each bull could have bred her and if so is the heifer a true freemartin?She had them thruogh the night and when dad went to the barn in the morning one was laying with the cow and dried off the other was in the middle of the pen in the sloppy muck,spent most of yesterday warming calf up and drenching with colostrum don't know if she wil make it.

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I think this just shows that the twins are fraternal, not identical. Iow, two eggs were fertilized rather than one egg that split in two and then was/were fertilized.  One bull would be the most likely and since the twins are from two separate eggs, the calves would be unique in their genetic makeup and, thus, look different from one another.  I think there's still a good chance that the heifer is a free martin.  Good luck as you nurse them along!  Is the dam feeding both of them?

If they are not identical twins, there is a chance that they were developed in separate placentas.  If that was the case, there is a better chance that the heifer not be a freemartin. I have had two heifers ( that I know of) that were twin to a bull that have been fertile, over the years. One is still here and is a good producing cow.

Yes, it IS possible that two bulls bred her and each fertilized an egg. That is why it is important when you AI, NOT to turn the bull in immediately!!

Be glad in your good fortune, I have had two sets and lost one of each set. Oh well, still at 100%, and that is all you can ask.

The cow has no interest in the one calf we are nursing along ,probably will be a bottle baby.

I think there is a chance she might not be a freemartin. We have quite frequently had heifers out of mixed sets go onto to breed and produce.  

What age do you normally check the heifer to see if she is a freemartin?     How soon can this be done?   We have a heifer/bull set this year that we really like and would like to know what this heifer is as soon as possible.  We normally wait until the majority of the rest of the heifers are cycling and check them only if they haven't cycled but as I said, it would be nice to know on this one before we start putting a lot of work into her.

Takes some management to save twins...  Since we get a good amount of twins every year, we manage likewise..  We watch the cows who have calved (doesn't matter what size the calf is) to see if they are going to go again.  Cows will often have the first one, maybe even clean & nurse it and then go off to have #2 and proceed to claim that one, forgetting #1. 

If she was fertilized at 2 different times the heifer shouldn't be a freemartin, I believe that happens from the split egg rather than the seperate eggs you are talking about.

Folks, I feel I need to input a little bit of info for all to think about here.

In reality -- the ONLY possible way a twin hfr to a bull can be fertile is if she resulted from an egg fertilized on the OPPOSITE side of the uterus to the bull -- in other words -- an egg released from each overy during the heat cycle .

This results in the bull having a totally seperate placenta, with no co-mingling of the blood supply to each other. The bull, even at this very young age, will have residual levels of testosterone that will affect the development of the hfrs reproductive structures if they are in the same placenta so being from seperate placentas would be the only way to prevent the injection of testosterone into the hfr.

Normally speaking, a hfr twin to a bull is going to be predominately freemartin -- the bull will always be fertile or at least have all the parts he is sposed to regardless.

The vast majority of cows that have twins fall into two categories -- one being a split embryo resulting in identical twins of the same sex and will have a very high degree of similarity.

The other would be that the cow double ovulated on the SAME ovary -- more times than not this is what happens -- and then you may either get twins of same sex or the bull/hfr deal. THIS set of twins will always have a freemartin hfr. Problem is you may never know which scenario it was until you can palpate or test them later in life.

The odds are against a fertile hfr twin, but it does happen!

Hope that clarifies some information -- it is a facinating business isn't it??

Terry

Off topic but a guy out here where I live said he had triplets from a black angus - Has anyone ever heard of this? Probably sterile?

"The other would be that the cow double ovulated on the SAME ovary -- more times than not this is what happens -- and then you may either get twins of same sex or the bull/hfr deal. THIS set of twins will always have a freemartin hfr. Problem is you may never know which scenario it was until you can palpate or test them later in life."


Ok, I have a stupid question then, when you super ovulate a cow the eggs are all from the same side, how is it that they are not freemartins, according to the explanation you just gave that should be the case?

Jill said:

"The other would be that the cow double ovulated on the SAME ovary -- more times than not this is what happens -- and then you may either get twins of same sex or the bull/hfr deal. THIS set of twins will always have a freemartin hfr. Problem is you may never know which scenario it was until you can palpate or test them later in life."


Ok, I have a stupid question then, when you super ovulate a cow the eggs are all from the same side, how is it that they are not freemartins, according to the explanation you just gave that should be the case?

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Because the eggs are transferred into recipients and are grown in one uterus.

A freemartin is caused by twin bull/heifer sharing the same uterus and blood flow, the and the hormones from the bull calf (testosterone) mix with the heifer calf, making her infertile.

Well the egg that splits is also in the same uterus so what is the difference?

Jill said:

Well the egg that splits is also in the same uterus so what is the difference?

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A egg that splits is identical twins, therefore they'll be the same sex.

Gotcha, that makes sense.  I think uterus was the wrong word, I think what you're saying is that if they are from different horns they will have different sacks with seperate blood lines, if they are from 1 horn they have the same sack.  correct?

Sorry Jill ,didn't mean to confuse you on this.

First of all -- a donor cow that has been superovulated will have multiple ovulations on BOTH ovaries at the same time, thus the term SUPERovulated. All donors will produce eggs on both ovaries when supered, remember Bramie -- her left side was damaged but she still tried to and did produce eggs there, problem was she could not get them to the uterus so we essentially could only recover the right side embryos.

In utero -- an embryo that has not grown to the hatching stage and is still encased in it's shell is a free floating entity -- no blood flow needed. After hatching and growing to the 35-39 day range (It varies some on each cow) , the embryo will then attatch to a Cotiledon point in the uterus, and at that point in time, will start to live and grow from the uterin blood flow. Up until then, it is self supporting.

As stated above, an embryo that splits itself will ALWAYS be the same sex - no exceptions to that rule as it was only fertilized one time with one sperm cell.

Also, in superovulation procedures, you do have multiple eggs being ovulated, and unless you use totally 100% sexed semen, you will run the odds of bull/hfr percentages from the flush. As each egg is fertilzed sperately -- it could be a matter of a coin toss as to which sperm got to which egg first.

If left to term -- a donor cow would never have a fertile female if she was superovulated and mutiple calves were born naturally. Do the math, I sure as heck hope I never see a donor who was left pregnant after superovulation, it would be not unlike the famous Suleman in California --- holy crud.

I have always wondered one thing though -- seeing how we have all the above stated side affects in the cattle business due to twinning, it amazes me why we don't hear much about the same scenarios in humans. Most of the twin HUMANS I know have been fertile -- at least it seems that way. Physiology at it's best I'd say!

Have a great day all -

Terry

That's because in humans, each twin has it's own blood flow in the uterus so male hormones don't mix with the female.

renegade said:

Off topic but a guy out here where I live said he had triplets from a black angus - Has anyone ever heard of this? Probably sterile?

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i've seen triplets. funny incident except the cow died. first thought it was one backwards when two different people felt inside and one swore it was a back foot and the other swore it was a front foot. so, i being the third and deciding vote said twins. we were all wrong though when the vet came out and delivered three via c-section. two bulls one heifer. the vet was not able to tell if the heifer was breedable so she was shipped. apparently they had flushed the cow then left three embryos in thinking one would dominate and be the only survivor cause she had had some problems carrying.

If the heifer is a freemartin or not depends on the levels of Antimullerian Hormones in the cow during pregnancy, this hormone is a vital factor in the development of a bull.Heifers that have been born co-twin to a bull and still go on to produce experianced lower levels of hormones, these levels didnt destroy her ovaries and the needed bits. Hope this helps!

LN said:

That's because in humans, each twin has it's own blood flow in the uterus so male hormones don't mix with the female.

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LN -- HUH?? -- what's the difference there partner? Sure humans are not EXACTLY the same as Bovines, however both are designed to have a single pregnancy -- they are not like cats. A human and a bovine have a physiology that is reportedly 96% the same, hormonaly speaking at the very least. Even the gestation is very close. What am I missing -- in both species EACH twin woulld have attached to it's own Cotiledon -- making it's own blood flow, however -- a same side twin will almost always have a common placenta -- thus causing the problem we are talking about! Explain your theory please.

Dakota Cow -- thanks for the hormonal description, a long forgotten or at least misplaced item after 34 years from graduation. I have whole heartedly only tried to retain what I actually use on a daily basis --  brain cells are a valuable commodity!!!

Terry

we had twins where one was red & the other black. Bull & heifer. they were aborted late term so not sure what heifer was.

Red