Is this what an "Honorable" breeder does?

Last year we had purchased a red Angus calf from a breeder out of midland TX.  The calf was not cut, and the breeders insisted that we bring the calf to them and leave him with them for a few days to heal.  We drop the calf off and three days later ,(on our way to pick him up), we called them to let them know we were a few minutes away.  They proceeded to inform us that the calf was found dead in the pen early that morning and that the vet had said there was no reason to write up a postmortem.  So, they weren't exactly sure how the calf "died".  According to them the calf had been casterated for two days and had showed no signs of sickness.  They offered us to choose from their two left over calves (which were both poor quality) so of course we didn't take one.  They then told us that what i had spent of the calf that died would be used on a calf the following year (this year).  So, time comes to pick a calf out, and it happens that all of their 2012 calves are priced for more than what i had spent the previous year (some of the calves were again, poor quality). They tell us that we either add on money to buy a calf from them, or our money is forfeited. They tell us that and "breeder" (meaning jockey), would do the same as them. We've talk to real breeders (ex: families that own the cows, birth the calves, feed the calves up, then sell them) not go us to OK or SD and buy a load of calves, and they've told us that what those people did was unethical.  Now tell me, is this honorable? Is a breeder responsible for the death of a calf on their land (when they insisted we bring it back)?  Should we be charged even more for a poor quality calf, or have our money completely forfeited?

To your post title...answer would be NO

Calf was in their possession and they are liable for its safety/well-being.

They should have ponied up on the spot.

Not ethical-

I'd say they resold the calf...

I've been in situations before where something 'died' and later I found out it was either resold, or it was retained and produced something tremendous.

Let me guess, they either already buried or disposed of the calf so you could not see the dead calf with your own eyes? I am guessing they resold your calf also. It is not an honorable or ethical breeder and would not use them. I would look into legal action against the breeder to get your money back. I would not pay more to get another calf either, I would talk with an attorney or file a law suite in small claims court to get my money back, just me, don't deal with a breeder like him and spread the word (steer planet) to protect others.

Couple of things:

1.  We cut around 100-125 head of bull calves a year and it is highly unusual to lose one.  In fact, the last time I lost one to cutting was 1997.  When you do lose them quickly, its due to lack of clotting factors in blood and its real obvious why they died.  They can get sick, etc and have trouble, but they dont just up and die within a day or two.  We do cut at 2-3 months and risk goes up with age. 

2.  I bought a steer this year that had not been cut.  Actually, I agreed to buy a bull calf for a steer.  A fair bit of money was involved, so I wrote them a check for half and they agreed to have him cut by a vet and I picked him up and paid for him after he got well.

3.  I would not hesitate to have someone inexperienced let me take care of a major procedure for them before picking up a calf, but it would be done before the calf ever left.  I would think it was unlikely they resold a Red Angus steer in Tx (not that big a demand), but if you didnt see a dead calf its a possibility I guess.

3. As far as pricing this yr vs. last year, that is a big grey area.  I would not guarantee my best calf next year fir this years price.  If nothing else, market calf prices are around 50% higher this year than last.  It really depends on how much you are talking about.  If you are talking about a $1000-$2000 steer last year then its not completely unreasonable for thim to hit you with an extra $500 or so.  Quality is in the eye of the beholder.  The biggest factor on a Red Angus steer in Tx is whether he'll classify or not.

You dont have to be told on here not to do business with them.  Buying steers is like any other thing when it comes to managing risk.  If you have a low tolerance of risk, buy a calf from a show outfit where the calf is worked, broke out and ready to go.  You'll pay more because the seller bore all of the risk.  Buying calves out of a pasture is usually cheaper, but you often have a greatet risk of issues like this, tameness, etc.

Overt cattle rustlers.  Shameful!  Hold your enemy close, hold your cattle trader closer!

Price of the calf regardless, if it dies on my watch I will replace it with one of equal quality, even if I have to go buy it from someone else.  THAT'S what an honorable breeder does.

A few years ago my daughter bought a heifer from a real breeder.(Not a trader.) Turns out she was bred, and died trying to give birth.(Really bad deal.) Anyway he offered us his best heifer the next year, and we didn't like her that well, so he gave us a check for the full purchase price of the heifer. That guy has my utmost respect, a real standup breeder! Good Luck!

ask him if his insurance will cover the cost and have him claim it on his insurance it it was on his property

I dont know, the whole situation seems fishy to me.  He had you pick the calf up and then bring it back? As Chambero said, any procedures like that which I was going to take responsibility for would have been done and the calf over them and doing well before I ever allowed you to pick him up the first time.  Did the "breeder" cut the calf for you at no cost or did you have to pay extra to have that done?  Regardless when the calf died I would have immediately offered to replace it, if you were not satisfied with what I had, then I would have immediately given you your money back, unless you wanted to leave the money for a downpayment on another calf, but you most likely wouldnt do that unless you really trusted the breeder.  Still like Chambero said, I wouldnt guarantee you pick of the herd.  I would probably sacrifice a calf of the same quality to replace him the next yr, even if they were priced higher that yr.  But I most likely wouldnt have given you a better calf than the one that died without you adding some money.  I also would have tried to help you find a calf to replace him with if I didnt have anything you wanted. 
Sounds like somebody doing bad business all the way around to me.

I would agree with the small claims court action, but furthemore I know we all want to "play nice " hear on steerplanet but it is absolutely about time that unethical sellers have their names  named similar to how stores pin up bad checks for all to see.  The bright light of day is a great disinfectant of the sludge that is out there.  It is time to make a board where an individual who has been wronged can post the " bad check on the wall"
Good luck on getting your money back, and please don't hesitate to let others know about this guy so others aren't in the same situation,  I would also agree the the good calf was probably sold for more money and you got the shaft

Probably resold the calf.

Never been in this exact situation with a club calf from either end. We cut ours at 2-3 months to try to prevent as much stress as possible. However, we have had a partnership breeding heifer substain terminal leg injury. As cruel as I felt, I loaded her up, took her to my vet for his "confirmation" diagnosis in writing and took pics before euthanizing her. I felt I responsible to prove status of the animal. I would go back and ask for cash, then start with an attorney sending certified letters, and then file in court. Sorry for your experience, there are many GREAT people in the world and many of them are right here.

redwingfarm said:

I would agree with the small claims court action, but furthemore I know we all want to "play nice " hear on steerplanet but it is absolutely about time that unethical sellers have their names  named similar to how stores pin up bad checks for all to see.  The bright light of day is a great disinfectant of the sludge that is out there.  It is time to make a board where an individual who has been wronged can post the " bad check on the wall"
Good luck on getting your money back, and please don't hesitate to let others know about this guy so others aren't in the same situation,  I would also agree the the good calf was probably sold for more money and you got the shaft

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I couldn't agree more! Time to put an end to that hush hush sweep it under the rug crap. Be it known!

Have a visit with the tscra inspector.  Something in Texas when the ranger badge is talking, a lot of listening happens.  May not get you any dollars but it usually makes them Leary of conducting business in a not so forth right manner.  The tscra  guys are good to work for you and know a scam when they see or smell one.
Their names and numbers are in the back of the cattleman mag.

I'm so sorry you had this experience w/ a Red Angus.  We've cut calves big as 600-700 lbs without losing one -- if something happens to one on our place, it's our loss.....  Next time ask around about the breeder's reputation.

I bought a bred cow on a breed sale in the fall. She was due to calve the following Jan. As the due date apporached I brought her into the barn. As it so happened she calved while I was @ work. Looked like the calf was kinda born in the corner of the pen and his neck was at the wrong angle and he died. Wasn't mad @ breeder or anything-these things happen you know... Anyway the breeder heard about it through a mutual friend and he called me & offered to take the cow back & give me 1 of equal value w/a calf at side. A heifer calf @ side no less! NOW THAT"S WHAT AN HONORABLE BREEDER DOES!!!

chambero said:

Couple of things:


3. As far as pricing this yr vs. last year, that is a big grey area.  I would not guarantee my best calf next year fir this years price.  If nothing else, market calf prices are around 50% higher this year than last.  It really depends on how much you are talking about.  If you are talking about a $1000-$2000 steer last year then its not completely unreasonable for thim to hit you with an extra $500 or so.  Quality is in the eye of the beholder.  The biggest factor on a Red Angus steer in Tx is whether he'll classify or not.

You dont have to be told on here not to do business with them.  Buying steers is like any other thing when it comes to managing risk.  If you have a low tolerance of risk, buy a calf from a show outfit where the calf is worked, broke out and ready to go.  You'll pay more because the seller bore all of the risk.  Buying calves out of a pasture is usually cheaper, but you often have a greatet risk of issues like this, tameness, etc.

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Pay attention, because Chambero is doling out some great words of wisdom here...

Let's make this short & sweet.  A reputable breeder will make this right in any way possible, but they won't give away the farm to make sure your feelings aren't hurt.  Cattle are worth more this year than last year.  If you want the same quality in a calf-for-calf trade, then the trade should've gone down last year.  The market simply isn't the same. I doubt he resold the calf, but it could've happened.  If you want the same quality as last year, you're gonna half to add some boot.

My guy would've made it right.  I know, because he's done it before.  If you want his name & number and wanna buy from him in the future, message me and I'll give it to you.  He doesn't sell "bargain basement" calves, they're not cheap but they're fairly priced.  His clipping and fitting at major shows are worth more than you can imagine.  He'll give advice when it's warranted, and he'll get you as good a steer as you are willing to pay for.

There can only be the same number of winners as last year.

Everyone always says this years calf crop is the best they've ever had.