What is everyone breeding their Jakes Proud Jazz daughters to? I'd love to go back to a PB Shorthorn but looking at the Bulls and EPDs...BWs are high-at least they are for my taste. Any suggestions and/or education on the Shorthorn breed is appreciated!
JPJ Daughters
- Thread starter DLB
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RyanChandler
Well-known member
All depends what your goal is? There are certainly plenty of purebred options, whatever it is. And just a heads up--you're going to have a bunch of people comment rambling on about how birthweight doesn't matter that's it's all about calf shape-- ignore these people. It's not their money on the line.
My oldest JPJ cows are now 11 I have bred them many ways and despite high bw epd's on some of the sires used there has been no calving issues. I would look at the progeny from the sires you are considering to help make final decisions. I have used many JPJ sons and grand sons back on the daughters with good success. I also really like the Canadian cattle on the JPJ daughters. Most of them are too compact so finding a bull with some extension seems to work well.
J
JTM
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I have some Purebred bulls for sale that could make AI herd sires. www.jtmorelandfarms.com
No pics yet but if you need calving ease maternal genetics that are low birthweight to help counter what the JPJ bloodlines have done to your herd then these bulls will help you.
No pics yet but if you need calving ease maternal genetics that are low birthweight to help counter what the JPJ bloodlines have done to your herd then these bulls will help you.
jaimiediamond
Well-known member
I haven't used JPJ myself but I have seen that Six S Shorthorns used a JPJ son very successfully on a number of different Canadian bloodlines. The same sire was used on a number of herds in Canada and again the cattle looked great. With this limited knowledge I'd think your daughters would cross very well with many sire options.
When considering BW I would also consider cow size. I am not a girl that is into one data point. If a 1000lb cow has a 80lb calf that would be 8% of her body weight I do not consider anything more than 7% calving ease even if the 80lbs on paper looks like it is. I think if EPDs were to be more accurate a production female weight and body condition score should be inputted on the cow herd (2 and up) it would really bring to light the percentage the calf was to its dam's weight which would make the algorithms more accurate
I also respectfully disagree with XBAR having had to calve out many commercial 2 year olds as well as Purebred Red Angus and Shorthorns. My experience over the last 4 years and over 1200 heifers is I have only assisted heifers that had blocky short fronted calves all these heifers were bred to light BW sires. BW is important but shape is also a huge factor when considering both the female having the calf and the calf itself.
When considering BW I would also consider cow size. I am not a girl that is into one data point. If a 1000lb cow has a 80lb calf that would be 8% of her body weight I do not consider anything more than 7% calving ease even if the 80lbs on paper looks like it is. I think if EPDs were to be more accurate a production female weight and body condition score should be inputted on the cow herd (2 and up) it would really bring to light the percentage the calf was to its dam's weight which would make the algorithms more accurate
I also respectfully disagree with XBAR having had to calve out many commercial 2 year olds as well as Purebred Red Angus and Shorthorns. My experience over the last 4 years and over 1200 heifers is I have only assisted heifers that had blocky short fronted calves all these heifers were bred to light BW sires. BW is important but shape is also a huge factor when considering both the female having the calf and the calf itself.
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
JTM said:
Help counter what JPJ has done? What in the hell are you talking about?
J
JTM
Guest
I don't know? Do you have a bunch of JPJ daughters in production? Maybe you could tell us how they perform?E3 Durhams said:
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
JTM said:
How many did you have? I believe Bigleow has as much experience as anybody this side of ohlde xbar has a bunch. Cody Nelson has used him a bunch. I've had two direct daughters. One quit milking and got culled. The other is my best cow. Very different pedigrees on the bottom side of my cows. I don't get why you act like that bull doesn't work?
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
Oh I almost forgot some ranch in North Dakota that has had a bit of success using JPJ. It's called Jungels Shorthorn Farm.
J
JTM
Guest
Ok, you had two of them and one of them sucked? What does that tell you? In the real world how does that pencil out? Do you think that commercial buyer is coming back for more of those? I bought 11 blue roan females 5 years ago from JSF and I believe I have 2 or 3 left? I have had at least a half dozen JPJ's over the years. They aren't low birth weight and they aren't calving ease. The bull also will not downsize mature cow weight very well and cows will still weigh easily 1600-1700 lbs. or more. The udders on the JPJ's are nothing to brag about and his carcass traits are nothing to brag about either. Pretty much gets destroyed on marbling. Sounds kind of like a terminal bull ehh? Then you throw in the low performance numbers and he's a low performance terminal bull.E3 Durhams said:
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
So six daughters versus two ? 
Very different pedigrees on the bottom side of my two cows. Older Canadian blood on the one that didn't work. She just didn't milk. I'm not sure how you can blame just one animal in the pedigree? But we all get it. The whole breed is terminal and here comes Josh and a Paul to save the day. Why don't you just sell the shorthorns and buy a herd of stabilizers.
Very different pedigrees on the bottom side of my two cows. Older Canadian blood on the one that didn't work. She just didn't milk. I'm not sure how you can blame just one animal in the pedigree? But we all get it. The whole breed is terminal and here comes Josh and a Paul to save the day. Why don't you just sell the shorthorns and buy a herd of stabilizers.
Hold on Brock!! I havent even commented on this thread and your attacking me on it? Grow the heck up !! Youve p*ssed in my cheerios enough. Isnt you that said "Open minds create better cows and people"? We can disagree all we want it isnt going to get us anywhere in life , lets stop this p*ssing match and move on. You breed the type of cattle that make you happy and we will do the same. Life is to short to argue over stupid things. Merry Christmas and God bless
J
JTM
Guest
DLB, basically the breed has not moved forward in lowering birthweights in any significant manner. The popular bulls are selling mainly because of their style and stout looks and some because of their growth performance. There are very few real low birth weight bulls out there that will maintain calving ease maternal on their daughters and keep cow mature weight down. Unfortunately, while trying to direct you to my website somebody who always tries to undermine my cattle program started questioning me. So I apologize for hijacking your thread.DLB said:
Why is it when the Shorthorn breed gets discussed, the most negative comments and arguments come from the Shorthorn people themselves, how can you promote your breed and expand your market when you all can't even come to any kind of consensus as breeders?
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Okotoks
Well-known member
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You really hit the nail on the head. The shorthorn breed seems to have an over abundance of breeders that can't resist critisizing the breed or other breeders on a multi breed forum no less. I can't remember any other breed doing this and can't figure out why they keep doing it! There are all sorts of postives but they just keep on keeping on :-\vc said:
J
JTM
Guest
Dan, the problem is that people don't like change. They like to get complimented on their cattle and they like to be patted on the back. The breed has become a club sort of speak instead of a business. We need to be honest and transparent about our experiences as cattlemen and that is all I am doing here. There is no personal attacks on people that you will see from me. What you will see is people attacking me for being honest about my cattle. People don't like that. They like people to shut up and choose cattle by their looks. Now when I feel someone is calling me a liar which has been done several times here before I am going to defend myself. Unfortunately, some people are unable to have a conversation about cattle without making it personal. The reality is that if we don't criticize the breed, we will never make any improvements. By improvements I don't mean growth performance.Okotoks said:
JTM I think if you go back and look at your comments it appears that you think JPJ cattle have no place and are not low bw. I believe you whole heartedly when you say these genetics did not work for you in your program/environment. However, I have had the complete opposite where he has done wonders in reducing both bw and mature cow size. So, if you would have stated it as if he didn't work for you but may for someone else that may not have received such blowback. I will agree that he does not help in the growth department but, you have to realize that everyone's herd is at a different place, i.e. some may have bred in too much growth some may have over bred on low bw etc. So, again what may work for one may not work for another.
To the original poster what are your goals with the resulting Calf so, myself and others can help direct you towards genetics that should work for you?
To the original poster what are your goals with the resulting Calf so, myself and others can help direct you towards genetics that should work for you?
I'm just a commercial producer, so this may not be up your alley, but I've used Waukaru Gold Mine 2109 enough, and for enough years, that I'm comfortable putting him in almost ANY heifer of any breed. Certainly, if they're reasonably well grown-out, he's no riskier than most Angus sires we've used - those Gold Mines come long and slender - but they grow well, and I'm liking the Gold Mine daughters (out of Angus cows) more and more as they get some age on them... may not have quite the growth of some of the other SH sires we've used, but they are doing their job well - and look better to my eye than some others while they're doing it.
J
JTM
Guest
I'm glad he worked for you and you are correct in your analysis. Unfortunately in our breed we have all kinds of inconsistencies and we have pretty much about 5 different breeds of Shorthorns within our small breed. If we were a larger breed that might be alright but if we want to gain commercial acceptance we need to have consistency and zero risk for the commercial customer. From my experience Proud Jazz did not improve udders enough, did now down size mature "weight", maybe frame score but not "weight", and his birthweights would still jump over 100 on higher BW genetics on bull calves. I just believe there are a lot of bulls that are better options to improve the breed that people passed on because they didn't have the popular eye appeal that JPJ had. That's the problem we have. Choose by eye appeal and you give up a lot.mbigelow said:
