JPJ Daughters

Dbirdsong · Dec 24, 2016

I have never had any JPJ daughters, but I do have a Capiche daughter, JPJ GRANDDAUGHTER. I haven't been too excited so far. She didn't breed until she was a two year old. She is too small for my liking also. She seems to fit the JPJ mold in appearance. She was small at birth but that's about the only positive comment I can make about her so far. Maybe after she has her calf I'll have a different opinion.

caleb2709 · Dec 26, 2016

Jtm, I'm interested in your opinion of jpj son, damn proud. His mature video seems to be impressive. Maybe a touch moderate but functional. Btw I'm just breaking into the shorthorn breed. Bought a few embryos that trace back to one of your old cows athena. Some sired by damn proud, the other set by cf solution.

mark tenenbaum · Dec 26, 2016

Lucky_P said:
I'm just a commercial producer, so this may not be up your alley, but I've used Waukaru Gold Mine 2109 enough, and for enough years, that I'm comfortable putting him in almost ANY heifer of any breed. Certainly, if they're reasonably well grown-out, he's no riskier than most Angus sires we've used - those Gold Mines come long and slender - but they grow well, and I'm liking the Gold Mine daughters (out of Angus cows) more and more as they get some age on them... may not have quite the growth of some of the other SH sires we've used, but they are doing their job well - and look better to my eye than some others while they're doing it.

//// I think the breeders on here need to listen to people like you-if they are going to do anything in the commercial market-YOU ARE THE AUDIENCE they need to reach. Also-short of creating a 15 bull list-between SEK and CATTLE VISIONS-there are at least 15 CE bulls available-Canadian, JPJ sons and grandsons with some size and NON DS, the Red demand -Reward relatives that mere mortals may now use, the Dover derivitves,the Snead bulls, Sues Rooster bull,Hot commodity etc. And a bunch more out being showed that will have semen on the market-NOT TO MENTION:Studer, Waukaru, the north Dakota guys etc. The new trend that Sullivan began (out of necessity JMO) are the cool looking show cattle that people can calve out etc and I see A lot of that going on in the purebred deal.An example of some of the real old breeding on the newer genetics would be the reserve grand bull at the Royal that Kohlstadt raised-he will be CE and aint no pud.And not all the purebred deals that show some embellish data and or use the Mayan calender. Proud Jazz did in a much smaller way what Double Stuff did-he brought the breed to life where people would use one.AND-he was the first serious stab at doing something with the cow killer image Shorthorns maintained.So if everyone jumps on the bandwagon and that's the fad-one improvement leads to next. I only produced one Proud jazz female-but shes a very good one at least for what I have left: and Im sure M Bigelow has some good ones-I would consider him an authority on the whole jazz deal. O0

sue · Dec 26, 2016

Damn Proud - looked great as a calf on display at Ohio Beef Expo and was a crowd favorite at the NAILE as a 2 year old. I dont think he is a heifer option but longer hipped then what his sire typically makes. Deeper quartered then most jpj's at the time. I never used jpj - but it's important to me in any breed is the longevity in that rascal - his natural service for so many years in both fall and spring programs.

I have stepped away from PB shorthorn - in fact the only pb shorthorns I have are in the tank for later use. No pb females. So I have not payed alot of attention to PB shorthorn. However - the last two pb bulls used outside of Captain Obvious were SVFI Uncle and GS Rooster ( sire to Uncle) . Both bulls were old heavily used but not recorded. Mark is right - CFS/Lakeside Rooster ( GS Rooster x RS Linda Kay) may be a heifer option and is soley owned by Jon White ( former Gert breeder) in Georgia. Jon has a second set of calves on the ground- contact him for semen and information- Jon's bull is paternal brother to Uncle but no JPJ influence. The other pb bull that has been collected is a son of Uncle and out of Lily 803- Lakeside/CFS George 492 . George may still be at stud? He has no glamour shots but the calves are small and hairy. He may not ever be promoted but semen can be purchased by his owner as well - his DNA should be available as well. George has fall born calves on the ground and spring calves coming. I have in herd use only.

RyanChandler · Dec 26, 2016

Absolutely, Mark. There are so many more quality options than some would lead on. I bought a 2109 son last year and my results were the much the same as Lucky has stated having w/ 2109 himself-- calves come slender and grow well. I have some really nice heifers from him too. Good angular females that still have some substance to them. As far as the Jazz cattle, my experience has been more with using Jazz sons than daughters but IMO these genetics are as commercially viable as any in the breed. Sons like Addicted, the original Prestige at Lovings, I've had some GREAT daughters out of Maestro 35U.. so has JSF, Leveldale, and Dave Dillabo is CA. JSF Jazz Star 73U has been a great bull for me- I have 10 or so daughters and wish I had 100 more. Moderate, fertile, 1200lb cows that raise good calves year after year after year. These are cattle that that will go out and make people money on limited inputs. These sons are 1800 lb bulls, as was Jazz himself. so to hear someone say they had jazz daughters of comparable size is more of a testament to the disfunctional cows they had used him on than to the quality of jazz himself. I saw Damn Proud in Fort Worth a few years back- Id place him a little more to the show side of the spectrum than the previous sons mentioned but if that's your pursuit, then he's likely better suited than these other more commercially geared sons.

As far as the outcome from choosing cattle based on eye appeal,,, well that all depends on what the individual's eye considers appealing. IF you select cattle based on traits that have a negative correlation to functionality- hair, bone, neck extension, etc., well then of course this is detrimental. But if you're a cattleman that finds functional characteristics to be appealing, then 'eye appeal' is as good of an indicator of functionality as can be predicted by any selection protocol. Gerald Fry's "bovine engineering" offers a good tutorial on this approach.

caleb2709 · Dec 26, 2016

I just bought a damn proud x ace of diamonds heifer that I'm pretty impressed with. I'm hoping to get a couple heifers out of these embryos and eventually take all of them back to Canadian bloodlines. Anyone know of any Canadian bulls that work on more of the show females? Obviously not for first calves but down the road? Trying to build a foundation herd, with more emphasis in showing purebred heifers.

Attaching a video and rear view pic of the heifer I purchased.
https://youtu.be/ULtPKJUxXBM

JTM · Dec 26, 2016

caleb2709 said:
Jtm, I'm interested in your opinion of jpj son, damn proud. His mature video seems to be impressive. Maybe a touch moderate but functional. Btw I'm just breaking into the shorthorn breed. Bought a few embryos that trace back to one of your old cows athena. Some sired by damn proud, the other set by cf solution.

Caleb, yeah I sent you an email in reply to a message you sent me just yesterday. If show cattle is your thing then Damn Proud is pretty tough. He should have won NAILE as a two year old according to looks. Functionally, not sure he is an improvement genetically over JPJ. But we are talking about show ring and show cattle here right? Cates are using Damn Proud to downsize some large frame and it's working and in my opinion, for the show ring, it will work over and over again. The train wreck will accompany also. That's the nature of the beast.

linnettejane · Dec 27, 2016

my opinion...for what its worth...I have 12 females that have jpj in them...ranging from direct daughters to great granddaughters...all have calved unassisted (why I keep their daughters)...they are moderate sized, easy keeping, nice uddered, and maternal...no complaints here with him! I actually like them crossed better than straight bred to a shorthorn bull...

and I'm one of those people who goes by looks first, numbers at a glance...but what I'm looking for may not always be what is "popular"....im looking for what will compliment my girls and my objective for them...the numbers are irrelevant for many bulls I believe...just due to lack of use and/or accuracy (meaning every year there is a boat load of new, young, unproven bulls with numbers that I just don't give much weight to)...therefore I have to rely on the "eye"...

mark tenenbaum · Dec 27, 2016

caleb2709 said:
I just bought a damn proud x ace of diamonds heifer that I'm pretty impressed with. I'm hoping to get a couple heifers out of these embryos and eventually take all of them back to Canadian bloodlines. Anyone know of any Canadian bulls that work on more of the show females? Obviously not for first calves but down the road? Trying to build a foundation herd, with more emphasis in showing purebred heifers.///// Nice heifer LOTS of options -For CE you could use:Homedale Creole, any number of Waukaru deals, JSF Guage,Hot Commodity, Steve Frenches Final Four (Red Reward X SonnyX great Canadian Cow)Sharbens Red Resolve (triple clean full sib to simplfy),or Mitches Deizel or Mitches Eagle Eye,for Canadian JITS-HC Bluebook,or HC Feee Spirit-neither will be as showy as the CE list but they will add rib and depth. O0 Attaching a video and rear view pic of the heifer I purchased.
https://youtu.be/ULtPKJUxXBM

Duncraggan · Dec 29, 2016

JTM said:
mbigelow said:

JTM I think if you go back and look at your comments it appears that you think JPJ cattle have no place and are not low bw. I believe you whole heartedly when you say these genetics did not work for you in your program/environment. However, I have had the complete opposite where he has done wonders in reducing both bw and mature cow size. So, if you would have stated it as if he didn't work for you but may for someone else that may not have received such blowback. I will agree that he does not help in the growth department but, you have to realize that everyone's herd is at a different place, i.e. some may have bred in too much growth some may have over bred on low bw etc. So, again what may work for one may not work for another.

To the original poster what are your goals with the resulting Calf so, myself and others can help direct you towards genetics that should work for you?

Click to expand...

I'm glad he worked for you and you are correct in your analysis. Unfortunately in our breed we have all kinds of inconsistencies and we have pretty much about 5 different breeds of Shorthorns within our small breed. If we were a larger breed that might be alright but if we want to gain commercial acceptance we need to have consistency and zero risk for the commercial customer. From my experience Proud Jazz did not improve udders enough, did now down size mature "weight", maybe frame score but not "weight", and his birthweights would still jump over 100 on higher BW genetics on bull calves. I just believe there are a lot of bulls that are better options to improve the breed that people passed on because they didn't have the popular eye appeal that JPJ had. That's the problem we have. Choose by eye appeal and you give up a lot.

In my opinion this is where we need to go, reduce frame size without reducing mature weight, makes cattle earlier maturing and 'easier doing', with resultant better fertility, which is the cornerstone of herd profitability!

sue · Dec 29, 2016

mbigelow said:
My oldest JPJ cows are now 11 I have bred them many ways and despite high bw epd's on some of the sires used there has been no calving issues. I would look at the progeny from the sires you are considering to help make final decisions. I have used many JPJ sons and grand sons back on the daughters with good success. I also really like the Canadian cattle on the JPJ daughters. Most of them are too compact so finding a bull with some extension seems to work well.

So can we all read the part of of JPJ daughers age 11 again.

JPJ Daughters

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