Maine Bull Stinger...I need some information

I'm looking for some information on an old Maine bull called Stinger...he was a red & white bull that was around in the early 90s...I thought he was a Cunia son, but I'm not sure about that. I need to know ANYTHING anybody knows about him... Pedigree, availability and retail value of semen, any registration numbers with any associations... All I have is a name and a semen code MA 336 and I'm not having any luck finding more.

Thanks!

http://www.maine-anjou.org/pagedisplay.php?id=341879

He's a PHAC.

leanbeef said:

I'm looking for some information on an old Maine bull called Stinger...he was a red & white bull that was around in the early 90s...I thought he was a Cunia son, but I'm not sure about that. I need to know ANYTHING anybody knows about him... Pedigree, availability and retail value of semen, any registration numbers with any associations... All I have is a name and a semen code MA 336 and I'm not having any luck finding more.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

He is a PHA carrier and is responsible for most of the PHA carriers in the Shorthorn breed. His reg # is 111205. He was a Sir Monument son, born in 1985, 94% Maine, bred by Bobby Maddox and I believe that he was red, not red and white - I may have a picture

Its really too bad that hybrid vigor cow is in there as well as pha.

Very unique bred bull.

Thanks, guys! I kept digging and finally came across the bull you've all described. For some reason, I was thinking the bull I was thinking about was a Cunia son... I guess not!

I actually have a photo... He IS red and white...very typical, old school fullblood Maine markings.

Hey Knabe-how does he compare to Hardings Capital Gains-or the (probably stouter) General Lee that you have ?.I dont expect Cap Gains to be that stout-but I like the CE-and hes certainly as stout and as big as any Shorthorn. O0

mark tenenbaum said:

Hey Knabe-how does he compare to Hardings Capital Gains-or the (probably stouter) General Lee that you have ?.I dont expect Cap Gains to be that stout-but I like the CE-and hes certainly as stout and as big as any Shorthorn. O0

Click to expand...

Dont know. Someone is buying general jackson who you may be referring to.  Jerry gibson used a while ago .  I dont know if i can get him registered canadian.

I hope i can.  He does have the right bull in him for thickness.

knabe said:

mark tenenbaum said:

Hey Knabe-how does he compare to Hardings Capital Gains-or the (probably stouter) General Lee that you have ?.I dont expect Cap Gains to be that stout-but I like the CE-and hes certainly as stout and as big as any Shorthorn. O0

Click to expand...

Dont know. Someone is buying general jackson who you may be referring to.  Jerry gibson used a while ago .  I dont know if i can get him registered canadian.

I hope i can.  He does have the right bull in him for thickness.

Click to expand...

Gains was a really nice complete stout bull - he was a fullblood (Stinger wasn't) and IMHO a much better bull

He does look like a better bull. First pic ive seen of him?

On the other hand hes got another shot.

Looks like a good bull to use on shorthorns ;D

We had a "collector's Edition " section in our sale 2005,06 & 07 . The last page of the catalog was always a selection of old shorthorn and Maine influenced semen. Pretty sure Stinger was offered one of the 3 yrs and sold for $75-100/unit? I know Cunia sold very well $200 + / unit.  The entire "lot" sold as a choice  so you never knew what anyone wanted each lot sold as a choice every time... kinda fun. I can dig for a marked catalog.  Not sure any of the catalogs show up if you google- Lakeside Farms Invitational ?  I used to keep a list of who had what in old semen and prices ... dont have it now. 

DL said:

knabe said:

mark tenenbaum said:

Hey Knabe-how does he compare to Hardings Capital Gains-or the (probably stouter) General Lee that you have ?.I dont expect Cap Gains to be that stout-but I like the CE-and hes certainly as stout and as big as any Shorthorn. O0

Click to expand...

Dont know. Someone is buying general jackson who you may be referring to.  Jerry gibson used a while ago .  I dont know if i can get him registered canadian.

I hope i can.  He does have the right bull in him for thickness.

Click to expand...

Gains was a really nice complete stout bull - he was a fullblood (Stinger wasn't) and IMHO a much better bull

Click to expand...

I really like the look of that bull too!

DL said:

leanbeef said:

I'm looking for some information on an old Maine bull called Stinger...he was a red & white bull that was around in the early 90s...I thought he was a Cunia son, but I'm not sure about that. I need to know ANYTHING anybody knows about him... Pedigree, availability and retail value of semen, any registration numbers with any associations... All I have is a name and a semen code MA 336 and I'm not having any luck finding more.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

He is a PHA carrier and is responsible for most of the PHA carriers in the Shorthorn breed. His reg # is 111205. He was a Sir Monument son, born in 1985, 94% Maine, bred by Bobby Maddox and I believe that he was red, not red and white - I may have a picture

Click to expand...

if he was bred by bobby Maddox they just stuck a paper on him. Looks to me like David gilger bred the dam who was out of a cow bred by Wallace Wilkinson in ky. Baileys probably bought the cow bred to sdr monument in a g&f sale. Don't think monument was ever collected and sdr and g&f were partners in Goliath cattle co that owned the grove cattle. From the pedigree it is hard to see where phc came from

Maddox is the guy that found him at Gilger's and then formed a partnership.

Back in the beginning when studying Maine pedigrees carrying PHA, I thought it was coming from SDR Monument through the cow named Sibelle. I still believe that to be true because everything else appears to be clean through pedigree and Monument sired very little if any registered offspring. It's possible Maddox attached an incorrect pedigree but I don't think that happened. There was not a reason to do that unless the original breeder used maybe Paramount through A.I.. and incorectly papered him. And I guess another scenario is the dam was not papered correctly as well. But again, why? Maybe a parentage evaluation test would be fitting.

When talking to breeders in Canada and the States, both Stinger and Paramount were known for there inconsistancy. I think the carriers had more muscle expression and just a striking look and the carrier free were more average in phenotype.

THANKS FOR THE PICTURE-I just flushed this 12.5 year old to him (bottom picture)-Her recent daughters are pictured:1 out of a KABA Leader x full sib to KABA Rose and 2:the roan is a Free For All-Trying to get  bigger versions and retain the low bws.He looks more clean in his makeup and more complete than Stinger-just as thick O0

if he was bred by bobby Maddox they just stuck a paper on him. Looks to me like David gilger bred the dam who was out of a cow bred by Wallace Wilkinson in ky. Baileys probably bought the cow bred to sdr monument in a g&f sale. Don't think monument was ever collected and sdr and g&f were partners in Goliath cattle co that owned the grove cattle. From the pedigree it is hard to see where phc came from
[/quote]

We will likely never know the founder animal of PHA in the Maine breed - this is however whatever we do know

Originally PHA calves were identified as Maine-Anjou, Shorthorn or their crosses. The apparent link was three popular bulls: two registered Maine-Anjou bulls (Draft Pick, born 1989; AMAA # 165,744 and Stinger, born 1985; AMAA # 111,205) and a bull registered with the American Chianina Association (Payback, born 1992; ACA # 232,907). Subsequent genetic testing suggested a common ancestor of the three bulls. Because Draft Pick had the most complete pedigree and the largest number of samples available, an informative pedigree was developed and used to identify the defective gene. In that regard, PHA is the result of a single mis-sense mutation common to Draft Pick, Stinger, and Payback, and identified in modern Shorthorn, Maine Anjou, and composite cattle.

Draft Pick’s maternal great grand sire, Paramount (AMAA # 77; born 1973), a full-bood Maine-Anjou bull exported from England to Canada, was a PHA carrier. Due to incomplete or inaccurate pedigrees or inability to obtain samples from older full-blood Maine-Anjou cattle, the origin of the mutation in Stinger and Payback has not been positively identified. Molecular markers surrounding the gene suggest the French import Dalton (AMAA # 15; born 1970) as a common source for Stinger and Payback.

Since the DNA suggests that Stinger acquired the mutation from Dalton and I find no Dalton in his pedigree it is likely that his pedigree is incorrect

unfortunately people have thrown away dalton semen due to carriers being labeled as totally worthless.

if you know anyone who has any, let me know and i'll buy it.

Since the DNA suggests that Stinger acquired the mutation from Dalton and I find no Dalton in his pedigree it is likely that his pedigree is incorrect

Not unless one of the animals in Stinger's pedigree is related. If Stinger has a correct pedigree perhaps the Sibelle (which doesn't show parentage) cow is related to Dalton. Both Dalton and Paramount are Univers sons. It's very feasible Sibelle could also go back to the same genetics as Dalton, therefore acquiring the same mutation, and may even be a direct Univers daughter. PHA can also be passed through the dam side and carrier status is not always from a particular sire. Stinger did go back to a Cheston prefix bred cow which was an English import as well.

DL. I remember when many questioned Draftpick having an incorrect pedigree.

I cant remember, wasnt univers paris champion?

It would be interesting if any french genetics still had pha as the only defect testing they do is for dm which only started last year.

Telos said:

Since the DNA suggests that Stinger acquired the mutation from Dalton and I find no Dalton in his pedigree it is likely that his pedigree is incorrect

Not unless one of the animals in Stinger's pedigree is related. If Stinger has a correct pedigree perhaps the Sibelle (which doesn't show parentage) cow is related to Dalton. Both Dalton and Paramount are Univers sons. It's very feasible Sibelle could also go back to the same genetics as Dalton, therefore acquiring the same mutation, and may even be a direct Univers daughter. PHA can also be passed through the dam side and carrier status is not always from a particular sire. Stinger did go back to a Cheston prefix bred cow which was an English import as well.

DL. I remember when many questioned Draftpick having an incorrect pedigree.

Click to expand...

All right - cyber space ate my reply - how are you telos?
Paramount is a Univers grandson, while Dalton is Univers son. The CMAA lists 3 cows named Sibelle only one with a pedigree and her sire is Novino (and we know he is PHAF because he was tested).

The molecular markers suggest that Paramount passed the mutation to Draftpick and that Dalton passed it on to Stinger and Payback - beyond that we don't know. I would not be at all surprised to find that Stingers pedigree is incorrect.

And while I agree that the mutation can originate with the dam, AI certainly increases the frequency of the mutation in the population - off the top of my head I can only think of one purported female founder of a recently identified mutation

I do remember questioning a lot of pedigrees  

How was novino tested?