Manitoba Bull Test Shorthorns Top Gaining Breed

Congratulations to the Shorthorn breeders at the Manitoba Bull Test for putting forward a great performing group of bulls. (thumbsup)
196 BULLS ON TEST           A.D.G. - 3.74 LBS/DAY     W/D/A - 3.27 LBS/DAY
Shorthorn    14 BULLS ON TEST        3.98                             3.47            
Simmental   22 BULLS ON TEST         3.97                            3.32
Angus         78 BULLS ON TEST         3.92                            3.23
Gelbvieh      1 BULLS ON TEST          3.82                            3.34
Blonde        2 BULLS ON TEST           3.77                            3.27
Charolais     23 BULLS ON TEST         3.62                            3.43
MaineAnjou  8 BULLS ON TEST          3.61                            3.26
Limousin     16 BULLS ON TEST         3.60                            3.05

                         

Numbers between breeds don't really stand out to me other than to say there isn't much difference between breeds. Numbers haven't really changed in years unless they have individuals that the packers dont size wise and then you could get animals over 4 which has been done recently in tests in Canada.

It's not clear to me that the difference is completely genetic and not influenced by environment and behavior.

No one will validate the genetic tests and it's pretty much accepted the markers that are used don't work across breeds leading me to believe they have only found correlated snaps rather than causal.

Something else has to be going on.

nice to see!

i hope this doesnt hijack this thread, but it seems like there is a good bit of bull testing and data north for the shorties, is it being done down here in the states?  i know of several bull tests in my area, have even sent bulls to them(black maines), but have never seen shorthorns at them

guess its due to the obsession w/black hides down here?  wouldnt this be a good thing for the asa to implement?  at least try? or do they?  if they do, i dont know about it, so it must not be publicized much...

Always exciting to see shorthorns do well on test here in Manitoba!! (thumbsup)

vanridge said:

Always exciting to see shorthorns do well on test here in Manitoba!! (thumbsup)

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It's also the test station where the Shorthorn bulls excelled in marbling for several years.

Okotoks said:

It's also the test station where the Shorthorn bulls excelled in marbling for several years.

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Without trump?

Honestly, that's more important than minor differences on limited numbers of individuals for growth. 

Are shorthorns capable of finely flecked marbling?  From all the pictures of grand carcasses I took years ago, the marbling was not finely flecked,they sort of had marbling similar to longhorns, having larger flecks.  Herefords were almost devoid, but had a pinker hue to the meat, the meat was more finely granular, definitely different. 

knabe said:

Okotoks said:

It's also the test station where the Shorthorn bulls excelled in marbling for several years.

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Without trump?

Honestly, that's more important than minor differences on limited numbers of individuals for growth. 

Are shorthorns capable of finely flecked marbling?  From all the pictures of grand carcasses I took years ago, the marbling was not finely flecked,they sort of had marbling similar to longhorns, having larger flecks.  Herefords were almost devoid, but had a pinker hue to the meat, the meat was more finely granular, definitely different. 

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They excel at finely flecked marbling. As with any trait there is of course variation within the breed and among individuals but overall they have above average marbling. The Durham Research in Australia took the steers through to slaughter and verified they had both tenderness and good marbling. We could use a little more skill at marketing though.........

at the test station i send my bulls to here in BC, there are muliple bulls in the 4+ lbs/day region, with some even hitting 5 per day!

trying to learn said:

at the test station i send my bulls to here in BC, there are muliple bulls in the 4+ lbs/day region, with some even hitting 5 per day!

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There are at this test as well but thsoe are the averages. What are the average gains at your test?

a couple of pictures of the bulls at Douglas Test...

oops missed adding the pics

I see no reason to push a set of bulls to see how much they can gain in a 112 day period. Why risk the possibility of messing up the longevity of a herd sire? I know there have been some pretty powerful bulls come out of the Douglas Bull test, but I also know of many that have been ruined by the test. I have gone there many times, over the years, and I have gone there on three specific times to purchase a herd sire. Two of these times, the bulls I was interested were foundered to a point where they could hardly walk and I would not risk buying them. I did buy one bull out of this test that turned out to be a good breeding bull, however at 3 years of age his feet were growing like a weed sprayed with 2-4 D. Whether it was the feed he received or his genetics I don't know, but I 'm betting on the feed that was a cause of this. I also disagree with the policy of not allowing bulls that reach a certain index to sell. I  remember one year that several of the very best bulls did not make the sale, simply because they came into the test with high weaning weights and they did not gain as fast during the test period. Several of these bulls were 250 lbs heavier than some of the bulls in the sale,. but they could not sell. This is why we do not cull our bulls for ADG or WPDA, because we would end up removing almost every low BW bull and those bulls suitable to use on heifers. We allow the buyers to decide what they want for their program and so far it seems to have been working well.

When we started our bull test, I was very happy when every consignor was in favor of feeding a high roughage ration designed for optimum growth and not maximum growth. This ration allows the bulls to express their growth without burning their guts and joints. I think it has proven to be a very good policy and I am very pleased with how atheltic these bulls are. We have several customers who have told us that our bulls are too good to sell for meat when they are done using them... which I think is a great compliment.

Rate of gain contests should be only for steers that will be slaughtered at the end of test. I do not feel these tests should ever be used for breeding animals .. of either sex. Breeding stock should be developed to stand the test of time, not just the test of a few short months.

justintime said:

I see no reason to push a set of bulls to see how much they can gain in a 112 day period. Why risk the possibility of messing up the longevity of a herd sire? I know there have been some pretty powerful bulls come out of the Douglas Bull test, but I also know of many that have been ruined by the test. I have gone there many times, over the years, and I have gone there on three specific times to purchase a herd sire. Two of these times, the bulls I was interested were foundered to a point where they could hardly walk and I would not risk buying them. I did buy one bull out of this test that turned out to be a good breeding bull, however at 3 years of age his feet were growing like a weed sprayed with 2-4 D. Whether it was the feed he received or his genetics I don't know, but I 'm betting on the feed that was a cause of this. I also disagree with the policy of not allowing bulls that reach a certain index to sell. I  remember one year that several of the very best bulls did not make the sale, simply because they came into the test with high weaning weights and they did not gain as fast during the test period. Several of these bulls were 250 lbs heavier than some of the bulls in the sale,. but they could not sell. This is why we do not cull our bulls for ADG or WPDA, because we would end up removing almost every low BW bull and those bulls suitable to use on heifers. We allow the buyers to decide what they want for their program and so far it seems to have been working well.

When we started our bull test, I was very happy when every consignor was in favor of feeding a high roughage ration designed for optimum growth and not maximum growth. This ration allows the bulls to express their growth without burning their guts and joints. I think it has proven to be a very good policy and I am very pleased with how atheltic these bulls are. We have several customers who have told us that our bulls are too good to sell for meat when they are done using them... which I think is a great compliment.

Rate of gain contests should be only for steers that will be slaughtered at the end of test. I do not feel these tests should ever be used for breeding animals .. of either sex. Breeding stock should be developed to stand the test of time, not just the test of a few short months.

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The bull numbers the last few years at Douglas are not even half what they used to be a decade ago. This is party due to BSE, but also due to consignors being fed up with their bulls being fed an incredibly "hot" ration, then not maintaining after they are sold. I can say that the new manager has done a lot to try and turn things around there. This year a few changes have occurred to address some of these issues. For the first time, ALL bulls will be offered for sale, regardless of their performance numbers (pending semen test of course). This takes away the problem of younger bulls or low BW bulls. As well, there is an option for consignors to choose between two different rations for their bulls to be fed (this is decided by voting as a breed I think). The diets are pelleted ration or "textured" ration; what that means I am not entirely sure. Regardless, I think the new manager has taken steps to improve the image of the test station, and I think producers can have more faith in bulls they may purchase there.
I'm not sure if the diets are explained in any more detail on their website, but to look at bull numbers the site is http://www.charolaisbanner.com/douglas/ .

justintime said:

I see no reason to push a set of bulls to see how much they can gain in a 112 day period. Why risk the possibility of messing up the longevity of a herd sire? I know there have been some pretty powerful bulls come out of the Douglas Bull test, but I also know of many that have been ruined by the test. I have gone there many times, over the years, and I have gone there on three specific times to purchase a herd sire. Two of these times, the bulls I was interested were foundered to a point where they could hardly walk and I would not risk buying them. I did buy one bull out of this test that turned out to be a good breeding bull, however at 3 years of age his feet were growing like a weed sprayed with 2-4 D. Whether it was the feed he received or his genetics I don't know, but I 'm betting on the feed that was a cause of this. I also disagree with the policy of not allowing bulls that reach a certain index to sell. I  remember one year that several of the very best bulls did not make the sale, simply because they came into the test with high weaning weights and they did not gain as fast during the test period. Several of these bulls were 250 lbs heavier than some of the bulls in the sale,. but they could not sell. This is why we do not cull our bulls for ADG or WPDA, because we would end up removing almost every low BW bull and those bulls suitable to use on heifers. We allow the buyers to decide what they want for their program and so far it seems to have been working well.

When we started our bull test, I was very happy when every consignor was in favor of feeding a high roughage ration designed for optimum growth and not maximum growth. This ration allows the bulls to express their growth without burning their guts and joints. I think it has proven to be a very good policy and I am very pleased with how atheltic these bulls are. We have several customers who have told us that our bulls are too good to sell for meat when they are done using them... which I think is a great compliment.

Rate of gain contests should be only for steers that will be slaughtered at the end of test. I do not feel these tests should ever be used for breeding animals .. of either sex. Breeding stock should be developed to stand the test of time, not just the test of a few short months.

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It is time to set things straight justintime!  Yes what you are saying was true 7 years ago and alot of it had to do with how the buyers were treating the bulls after the sale!  Just turning him out with the cows straight from the test station in the past should never of been an option, of course they will fall apart!  The truth is the test station has made adjustments and is more of a development center that promotes longevity in their bulls with a free choice grower pellet or textured grower ration plus free choice grass hay!  We are maximizing longevity, while still having adequate gain to identify genetic superiority.  The TDN on the grower ration is only 72% and I can tell you most independent sales their feed is alot hotter than that, I would know because i was in feed sales and was a Manitoba and Alberta feed rep for a number of years!  The bulls at Douglas are in large pens where they can interact plus they are exercised to promote strapping down of muscle.  The proof is in the numbers and the free movement of the bulls.  The catalog fat numbers say it all with the numbers averaging 6.4 mm back fat on the shorthorns.  You can see all the numbers at this link! http://www.charolaisbanner.com/douglas/cat12/index.htm  Also the two vets that have semen tested the Douglas bulls for the last 5 years before the sale said this group of bulls at Douglas are some of the best conditioned bulls for promoting longevity and no fat deposits were showing up in the testicles either, unlike some other places they have tested this year!  And yes that is correct SeannyT that all bulls are sale eligable this year pending they make semen and soundness test which allows the calving ease bulls to be available for sale as well.  As far as numbers go Douglas has the most bulls on test that it has had since BSE hit us!  One thing too is we have the most Angus bulls on test that has ever been on test before!  The test station will be feeding and AI breeding quite a number of yearling heifers this spring as well.  One other thing is Douglas is in the process of making arrangements to get the Grow Safe RFI system in to track feed efficiency, the next step in bull testing!  So as you can see Douglas Bull Test Station is alive and well and is doing its part in developing the best bulls that will impact Canada's beef industry in a positive way.  So unless you have current facts to present justintime I would recommend keeping your mouth shut and not trying to bash other places like Douglas which are doing their part for the beef industy!

6772327; You stated that "The TDN on the grower ration is only 72%".  Can you please explain further.  Is that the TDN of the pellet, or the TMR?  Is that the level of TDN on a dry matter basis or as fed?  If as fed, what is the dry matter of the pellet?

Douglas bull developement center gives  the breeders and buyers  honest gentic evaluation of feed conversion, soundness, and bull fertility. As a buyer of bulls for many varied customer, (commerical and purebred) and breeds I can easily compare what genetics can get the job done from birth to table. Added bonus the bulls are ultra sounded, another tool that is a great value and unlike EPD cannot be mucked with! The ration and day to day managment of all bulls is the same, and the exact informaiton available to anyone.

Anyone looking for some performance bulls with some back up data here is the sale catalogue link

http://www.charolaisbanner.com/douglas/cat12/index.htm

If you look at the wda figure......to me that says it all. The Shorthorns......as a whole have gotten to be HUGE. BIG,BIG,BIG. That is great for the show ring stuff and(If you are considering the Shorthorn breed to be a terminal breed).....but it is ridiculous to think of ourselves as a Maternal breed and then have an average size cow of 1500 pounds or whatever it is. Big wda equals HUGE cows that is all the wda is. The size of the cow doesn't matter for terminal breeds so much. jmo

Multi trait selection might be something breeders should consider.  If your Shorthorn influence steers don't grow that is 50% of the calf crop that your customer won't be happy about.  I don't think of Shorthorn bulls as just cow fresheners which is what is happening with a lot of Angus bulls commercially. It's one thing to be maternal which is a trait I don't feel Shorthorns have a problem with; it's another thing to breed for no performance with the explanation that it is a maternal breed.  One might select a smaller frame size depending on the environment, but fleshing ability, and feed conversion are important even for a maternal based program. I do know that if every Shorthorn breeder in Canada selected for cattle that lacked size (weight not height) that we would lose all the commercial acceptance we have worked hard to gain.  

Wow....Angus bulls are just cow fresheners? They own the market share down here they all kinds of epds with actual accuracies! They have created some incredible carcass cattle. How can you call them cow fresheners? Are Canadian Angus that much different than in the US?