NAILE Open Shorthorn Show - a couple interesting facts.

Of the more than 300 heifers in the Open Shorthorn Show at NAILE - 25% of them either had the SULL or CF prefix.

36.6% of the class winners in the heifer division had the SULL prefix.

Here are the Champions

Who had the reserve heifer and what's she bred like?

Reserve- Ashley Vogel bred & owned heifer. she won jr nationals bred & owned and iowa state fair supreme FFA heifer. think she is out of Vogel's Charisma or Ace of Diamonds. Don't remember.

And, at least 85% of the cattle in the show had Trump in them.  The champion female is a Trump out of a daughter of Trump.  The reserve champion bull is a Sonny.  I really like him, I might add.  I told Bill Rasor that if he decided he had too much Sonny in his herd, maybe I could borrow the bull.  He said he'd think about it.  I won't holdl my breath.  Anyway, another fabulous show.  Of the over 300 head of heifers, I would like to have about 290 of them.  You have to give the Cates and Sullivan firms credit for what they do.  They do it well.  I especially applaud the Sullivans for producing the quality numbers they do and the Cates family for developing the genetic base that these show winning cattle have traced to for nearly 20 years.  Until something better comes along.....I know both outfits are trying some new blood and perhaps one of these will click and be the next "one".

Whoever breeds that animal that becomes the next trump will catch lightning in a bottle.

To me one bloodline being that dominate says 2 things to me......
1.) That bull is flat good in the show ring. End of debate. Unbeatable. Like Tiger Woods in his prime or Michael Jordan.  Kudos to those programs for putting shorthorns on the map.

2.) Are there just no other bloodlines that can compete?  Is 90% of the future of shorthorns going to trace back to trump? Seems like folks are painting themselves into a corner. Unless we just continue to linebreed him. When I read that I wonder.  Are people just getting out there checkbooks to follow the crowd? Surely there are many more bloodlines that can compete? Right?  I guess it isnt much different then any other club calf deal. Its all heatwave and what not. just thinking out loud. Will Trumps dominance reign supreme for the forseeable future?  What would happen if a little ol home raised, home bred calf came outta nowhere and beat em all? When is the last time that has happened?

Eggbert  you could have purchased the "winners circle at a fraction of the value on the November 12th bluegrass sale".  Herd bulls for less then $2000 and embryos for under $ 200/egg?  90% of the sale  offered " winning  bloodlines".  Did I miss the point ?

trevorgreycattleco said:

2.) Are there just no other bloodlines that can compete?  Is 90% of the future of shorthorns going to trace back to trump? Seems like folks are painting themselves into a corner. Unless we just continue to linebreed him. When I read that I wonder.  Are people just getting out there checkbooks to follow the crowd? Surely there are many more bloodlines that can compete? Right?  I guess it isnt much different then any other club calf deal. Its all heatwave and what not. just thinking out loud. Will Trumps dominance reign supreme for the forseeable future?  What would happen if a little ol home raised, home bred calf came outta nowhere and beat em all? When is the last time that has happened?

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I think there are some other bloodlines that can come close to competing. The big thing is IMO is that very few people can compete with say Sullivan on feeding one for optimum performance and look. Thats one reason that you see some of these calves at these big sales that look like a million bucks & then after they are taken home they come back looking like a thousand bucks.
I think that if someone that had a calf that good , then Sully would come along and offer them so much money that they couldn't afford to turn them down. He would then take it home & turn it out.  

sue said:

Eggbert  you could have purchased the "winners circle at a fraction of the value on the November 12th bluegrass sale".  Herd bulls for less then $2000 and embryos for under $ 200/egg?  90% of the sale  offered " winning  bloodlines".  Did I miss the point ?

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You are exactly right Sue. The Sharben bull was really good. He looked totally different than in the catalog. Had an awesome butt on him, tons of hair & really moved out good. He weighed 960 lbs on show day & I think stood 4th against all the big boys & was the youngest bull in the class. There was some really good eggs bought worth the money. After seeing the Roan Goose x Augusta Pride calves , Tim Brandenburg & I bought the eggs in the sale. That cow is one awesome cow.

I watched several l classes online... IMO  the judge was the one of the worst I had ever seen.... he actually talked about about picking a white bull with a long neck and narrow front end.... and he actully mentioned hair on the mic!!! holy CRAP...  lots of hair on a bull is a negative trait.. indicates a lack of testosterone!!!or a genetic defect!!!!  Its that reason the shorthorn breed has calving ease and birth wt issues plus the show cattle are not economically sound cattle!!!!  Until the breed gets a judge that actually raises shorthorn cattle for a living! and has a frickin clue what a bull ought to look like what is the point of going to a show when they pick inferior animals!!!

Who is in charge of this circus and when are the breeders going to take control and push aside the show cattle multipliers!!  he also faulted heifers for being too small and mentioned a possible lack of performance? Are you kidding me???? $7.00 corn!!!!  The first thing I want is a heifer that looks good on 1/3 less feed!!!!! and can actually live on grass!!!

Shorthorn show cattle multipliers can put these "SULL" cattle and Trumps on a pedistal but if the STUPID DUMB A$$ judges would quick picking them so many of our breeds stigmas and problems would disappear!!!

Doc you have an excellent point! Who has the time, man power, and money to compete with Sullivans? I mean that in no disrespect. But what I can't understand is all the money that people are spending to stand in a picture with a purple banner. At some point in time these cattle need to pay for themselves don't they? JMO

CCW said:

Reserve- Ashley Vogel bred & owned heifer. she won jr nationals bred & owned and iowa state fair supreme FFA heifer. think she is out of Vogel's Charisma or Ace of Diamonds. Don't remember.

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She is an Ace of Diamonds. Congrats to the Vogel family, one he** of a job.

sjcattleco said:

I watched several l classes online... IMO  the judge was the one of the worst I had ever seen.... he actually talked about about picking a white bull with a long neck and narrow front end.... and he actully mentioned hair on the mic!!! holy CRAP...  lots of hair on a bull is a negative trait.. indicates a lack of testosterone!!!or a genetic defect!!!!  Its that reason the shorthorn breed has calving ease and birth wt issues plus the show cattle are not economically sound cattle!!!!  Until the breed gets a judge that actually raises shorthorn cattle for a living! and has a frickin clue what a bull ought to look like what is the point of going to a show when they pick inferior animals!!!

Who is in charge of this circus and when are the breeders going to take control and push aside the show cattle multipliers!!  he also faulted heifers for being too small and mentioned a possible lack of performance? Are you kidding me???? $7.00 corn!!!!  The first thing I want is a heifer that looks good on 1/3 less feed!!!!! and can actually live on grass!!!

Shorthorn show cattle multipliers can put these "SULL" cattle and Trumps on a pedistal but if the STUPID DUMB A$$ judges would quick picking them so many of our breeds stigmas and problems would disappear!!!

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You must not have listened to that judge very carefully, because it has been a very long time since I have seen a judge get down and look at udder development, move tails to look at the vulva, and actually analyze the animals in class. Not only did he do this, but he was also not afraid to move away from choosing animals from the "cocktail club", something that isn't often seen on this level.
Also, since when have the show cattle multipliers become bad? There are a couple of breeders that have put horns on the map, and in my humble opinion have done more for the breed than people such as yourself who get on here and bi*** about how much bad they've done. Start breeding something that is accepted by cattlemen across the country and is in strong demand then come back and offer your opinion. SJ, I would be willing to put down a good chunk of change that at least one of the champions (not naming which one), will be just as good as a cow on grass if not better. When you reach the level of breeding that these folks have, things come along more often that will make you money, whether it is the publicity from winning, or fleshing ability, I think that they have you beat.

By breeding such tight bloodlines, these operations have a great opportunity to take advantage of in-breed heterosis. This is done a lot in the Hereford breed and produces outstanding results.

sue said:

Eggbert  you could have purchased the "winners circle at a fraction of the value on the November 12th bluegrass sale".  Herd bulls for less then $2000 and embryos for under $ 200/egg?  90% of the sale  offered " winning  bloodlines".  Did I miss the point ?

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Sue...you didn't miss the point as I didn't intend to direct comments in any specific direction but just wanted to see where people took the discussion.  With that being said...I expected/hoped to see comments such as Trevor Greys' number 2) thoughts and questions which are interesting to consider.   

Are there other bloodlines that can compete?  Vogel's Reserve Grand Heifer doesn't have Trump in her pedigree...is that the start of something??  Or (as Trevor Grey asks) will Trump lines continue to dominate?  If not, where will they come from?  other US lines / Canadian genetics / Australian genetics?  I think the Trump-influenced cattle will continue to dominate in the show ring for the foreseable future unless there is a significant type change.  What "type change" could theoretically occur (or is starting to occur) for that to happen?  How long will that take to reach the show ring?  or will it?  or has it already?       

Wiseguy - for most of us the cattle need to pay for themselvers, but for some it remains only a hobby.  So instead of paying $40,000 on a boat they spend it on a heifer or two.

Also...I don't begrudge CF and SULL.  I think they need to be commended.  It is very difficult to reach the pinnacle, but it is even more difficult to stay there.

I commend what the Cates and Sullivan programs have done. They have perfected the show ring and do this job extremely well.It is hard to slam success or argue against it.  There are a few others that do a great job as well. Are there other cattle that can compete?  I say Yes there are, but before we see this trend change, we have to also see some minor changes to what is demanded in the show ring. I have said this many times before on here, that we need to move more to showing breeding stock rather than just breeding show stock. I think the SULL program in particularm, has been selecting breeding stock from all sectors of the breed. Right now, the Trump lines still are dominating, but there will be cattle from some of these other lines that rise to the top in the future.
Canadian Western Agribition starts next Monday, and we will have a powerful set of cattle in the Shorthorn show there. I would predict that there will be less than 5 % of the cattle in the show that have Trump bloodlines. There will be a few with Trump in the background of their pedigrees.... at least two or three generations back. From what I have heard, there are probably more Americans coming to this show this year than I have seen in several years, to see the show. I expect there has to be a reason they are coming other than for a winter holiday. Good cattle are good cattle regardless of their pedigree.
In the future, I expect we will continue to see the Trump inflluence in the show ring especially in the US, but I do suspect that we will start to see the Trump lines being mixed with other lines of the breed. Take a look at what Cyclone Trace is doing in their program. John Hagie is using a lot of different bloodlines, including a pile of Canadian bloodlines, to build his cow herd. I expect this is just the start of this  and in the next few years we will see more and more show cattle that have a combination of Trump lines and many other lines from the breed.

I thought the judge did a really good job other than maybe a handful that I would have done differently. Mainly, he explained himself really well in what he was looking for and why he was looking for it. He wanted moderate cattle with good fleshing abillity, soundness, length of body and length of hip. He talked about the need for smooth shoulders, larger vulva's, and keeping the cattle from getting too short bodied.  For the most part Mr. Bloomberg was very consistent I thought. I wasn't able to stay until the end of the show but from what I saw a lot of the high dollar heifers that sold were getting beat by breeders or heifers that I didn't recognize. I respect a judge who doesn't just study the money numbers. I still think he made a couple of huge mistakes in my opinion but it is still one person's opinion and a huge show.
One observation I made was the ridiculous size of some of the heifers compared to the others in the class. One 2011 heifer I calculated had a 5.00 WDA. Come on now people, this is getting ridiculous. Thankfully the judge was calling some of them out for being too large for their age, but that was only about half of the time. I guess it is better than what has been happening in the past. Also, who would move a bulls birthdate that far??? Seen some pretty sad stuff but also some pretty good stuff.


I guess the bull could have been about 150 lbs at birth...

JTM said:

I thought the judge did a really good job other than maybe a handful that I would have done differently. Mainly, he explained himself really well in what he was looking for and why he was looking for it. He wanted moderate cattle with good fleshing abillity, soundness, length of body and length of hip. He talked about the need for smooth shoulders, larger vulva's, and keeping the cattle from getting too short bodied.  For the most part Mr. Bloomberg was very consistent I thought. I wasn't able to stay until the end of the show but from what I saw a lot of the high dollar heifers that sold were getting beat by breeders or heifers that I didn't recognize. I respect a judge who doesn't just study the money numbers. I still think he made a couple of huge mistakes in my opinion but it is still one person's opinion and a huge show.
One observation I made was the ridiculous size of some of the heifers compared to the others in the class. One 2011 heifer I calculated had a 5.00 WDA. Come on now people, this is getting ridiculous. Thankfully the judge was calling some of them out for being too large for their age, but that was only about half of the time. I guess it is better than what has been happening in the past. Also, who would move a bulls birthdate that far??? Seen some pretty sad stuff but also some pretty good stuff.


I guess the bull could have been about 150 lbs at birth...

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I wish more judges would take note of growthier than normal calves. There is a show coming up at the end of the month that we struggle to compete with every year. I do not adjust  birth dates and we have just went to showing in the cross breds because of the size of some of the "March" and "Aprils" in the purebred classes. Not whining at all it is what it is only way was to move to the crossbred classes at these earlier jackpots and later around March when all have caught up in size show in breed.
I was able to watch little on the Internet between travels on the laptop. I wish I could have been there in person, looked like some strong competition. Were the $120K heifers there and how did they do in the show? Anyone know?

I am not hating on CF or SULL, they obviously know what they are doing and I commend them for that. I do have to say it is nice to see a bred and owned heifer in the winners circle by a family that is so deserving of such a prestigious title.   

shortii said:

I am not hating on CF or SULL, they obviously know what they are doing and I commend them for that. I do have to say it is nice to see a bred and owned heifer in the winners circle by a family that is so deserving of such a prestigious title.   

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Thanks Shorti!!! We feel truely blessed to have made such an accomplishment within our breeding program. It really was great to see that our program in moving in the right direction. Todd and I and all of our kids love this breed and like to see the families in it when we are at the shows. These people are some of our best friends. Ace of Diamonds has worked well for us and others in this breed and continuing to get it done while being available to ALL breeders. Reserve Division 1 And the Reserve Female  plus many other class winners. The cow (Felecia 608S) that Ashley's heifer is out of goes back to a show heifer (TS Felecia) that we bought at the Nebraska Cattlemen's Classic the 2nd year Ashley was showing. What a great addition she was to our program. The cow that Felecia 043X  was out of was struck by lightning the summer or 2010 so she was her last calf. Still have grandma though and still flushing with full sibs to the Felecia 608S cow coming next spring. So proud of all our kids and their hard work at home and on the road. Payton and Ashley do most of the showing and truly love it and Cody has found his passion in fitting. Keep up the good work kids!!!!!!!!!!