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Author Topic: The cover of Shorthorn Country  (Read 7516 times)

Offline JPS

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2021, 03:23:48 PM »
If you will go read "History of Shorthorn cattle" by James Sinclair, you will find that many of the original shorthorns that were registered in the herd book had black noses.  I don't know who created the myth that Shorthorns can't have a black nose.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2021, 12:47:35 PM »
Idk thats its a myth as much as it is a breed standard.   What constitutes a "breed" if not a uniform or at least similar set of characteristics?

Why does every Shorthorn association in the world -except for the ASA- bar entry to black nose animals?

Why does every red pigment breed out there -red angus, Charolais, hereford, etc- bar entry to black nose animals?

Would seem to me that amongst cattle associations, theres a pretty unanimous consensus regarding this topic?

Offline shortybreeder

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2021, 03:07:13 PM »
Idk thats its a myth as much as it is a breed standard.   What constitutes a "breed" if not a uniform or at least similar set of characteristics?

Why does every Shorthorn association in the world -except for the ASA- bar entry to black nose animals?

Why does every red pigment breed out there -red angus, Charolais, hereford, etc- bar entry to black nose animals?

Would seem to me that amongst cattle associations, theres a pretty unanimous consensus regarding this topic?
Shorthorn Beef association doesn't explicitly forbid it. They ban "colours and markings foreign to the breed" which leaves the black noses paired with roan/red/white hair coats up to interpretation.
Beef Shorthorn association Rules and Regs don't even address coat color, and neither does the Australian Shorthorn association
I couldn't find a website for the Performance Shorthorn Association to confirm what their registration requirements are
CSA does ban black noses (kind of, but based on above comments it doesn't seem to be enforced).
Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?

Offline JPS

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2021, 03:12:42 PM »
You can look at coat color and say that it is a differentiation from other breeds.  I don't see any economic value to differentiating on a standard colored nose.  I have never heard a commercial cattleman sort the black noses out of a replacement heifer pen. I bet if we DNA tested all of the breeds, regardless of breed standards, we would find genetic diversity due to an unintended or intended breeding error.  DNA testing is the only way to prove an animal is "pure" in a legal sense.

Offline oakview

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2021, 04:20:13 PM »
I didn't know Char. were red pigmented.  I guess you learn something every day.  Speaking of "pure", how many "pure" Charolais are there around?  Are there any "pure" Herefords out there, black nose or not?  Weren't there some "pure" Herefords not long ago that threw rat tails?  I would say those animals had more serious problems than black noses.  If you look, at the WHR photo in question, the heifer in the background is clearly not a purebred Shorthorn, even if she has a white nose.  They offer several plusses each year in their sale and there's a real possibility the black nosed heifer in question is also a plus, making this discussion even more useless than it already is. 

Offline knabe

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2021, 08:54:18 AM »
Its already been proven with dna there are no pure cattle.

Thats not the issue.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 08:55:15 AM by knabe »
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2021, 09:29:32 AM »
Has nothing to do with purity- it has to do with maintaining a breed standard.

Im not sure where the purity focus comes from. I dont own any native shorthorns. 


Surely you didnt think Charolais had black pigment?   Black and red are the only two pigment colors.   Even if both Char parents were Fullbloods, if calf has black nose it can only be registered as a 15/16ths. 

If it is a plus on the cover it makes the conversation even more relevant is why in the world would a purebred registry have a crossbred as the poster child.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2021, 08:40:07 PM »
So that other breeds and or commercial breeders will try Shorthorns based upon the improvements made by the complimentary (mutual?) heterosis gained by the union of two breeds-Back to the purist endless loop-WHO ELSE OCCASIONALLY MAY USE A  SHORTHORN? non purists Who is the association looking for? (NON PURISTS) And why are breed comparisons RE the positive results  of using a Shorthorn on something else important to the association? up to debate-but sorta leaves this thread-hide color and a few other things past tense.Did the doner of the "Angus" beef-Fillet you paid $75 for have a black nose? Who nose-who cares? O0

Offline oakview

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2021, 09:05:23 AM »
Mark:  Thanks for making my point.  Next time I'll try to be more clear.  Breed standards?  Black Maines, Black Limmys, black Gelbvieh, black Chis with virtually no Chi breeding, black Chars, red Chars, black Simmys.  And we're worried about a black nose.  More power to Shorthorn Country if they try to emphasize the use of Shorthorns on commercial herds, whether they tried to do that with the cover in questions or not. 

Offline Hopster1000

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2021, 01:18:26 PM »

[/quote]
Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?
[/quote]

I was under the impression that polling occured naturally in Shorthorns, and have witnessed it at first hand as my father had a polled calf from horned parents. So could happen in heritage shorthorns or modern shorthorns.
Polling is a mutation that happens at a higher rate in Shorthorns than other breeds.
I had heard that polled shorthorns were then used to introduce the polled gene to many other breeds as the incidence of polling in some breeds is very low.

Offline shortybreeder

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2021, 02:36:31 PM »

Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?
[/quote]

I was under the impression that polling occured naturally in Shorthorns, and have witnessed it at first hand as my father had a polled calf from horned parents. So could happen in heritage shorthorns or modern shorthorns.
Polling is a mutation that happens at a higher rate in Shorthorns than other breeds.
I had heard that polled shorthorns were then used to introduce the polled gene to many other breeds as the incidence of polling in some breeds is very low.
[/quote]
You could try convincing Mr. Spenser (majority owner of cattle in that registry) of that, but good luck lol their rules plainly state any animal that doesn't grow horns by 6 months of age (not including scurs) will have its registration revoked and a note made in the pedigrees behind it.
For the record, I do use polled cattle and I don't particularly agree with this stance, just pointing it out for discussion purposes.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2021, 07:51:39 PM »
what are shorthorn purists, for lack of a better word, so worried about with black?


cataloging it on a phenotype?  slippery slope of color types? 


they are otherwise shorthorns?


i mean, seriously, they should genotype the whole herd, and get rid of anything with holstein, maine's, who knows what else.


all breeds are like this. all of them.

I dont know of any other breed like this that has no phenotypical standards or defining breed characteristics.   Shorthorn is the only association of any red hided breed I know of that even allows black noses to be registered.   Disqualification in every Shorthorn registry in the word- not the ASA theyll take your money.    I raised a hell of a black nose calf.  Even used him after Oakview saying he had a black nose bull that didnt throw any dark nosed calves.   My experience hasnt been so fortunate." Hes probably the best one you have posted and if you have any commercial cattle-getting rid of him would be plain stupid" JMO-Id breed him to whatever-and let people see the  good ones-X bred or whatever-surely the commercial deal cant be that bad where you are O0 If it is-retain ownership and sell based on carcass quality O0

Offline woodyc

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2021, 03:43:27 PM »
On a slightly different note there was a canadain buyer in Scotland over to by a shorthorn bull for massey harris this was just after the war when it was the done thing to tour herds before the bull sale in February in perth and he was asked at a dinner just before the sale to give his thoughts on what he had seen he stood up and said 'You Scots keep banging on about heads but the only good heads I have seen is on a highland bull and a lassie in a hotel in Inverness'

Offline Gargan

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Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2021, 06:03:49 PM »
On a slightly different note there was a canadain buyer in Scotland over to by a shorthorn bull for massey harris this was just after the war when it was the done thing to tour herds before the bull sale in February in perth and he was asked at a dinner just before the sale to give his thoughts on what he had seen he stood up and said 'You Scots keep banging on about heads but the only good heads I have seen is on a highland bull and a lassie in a hotel in Inverness'
 (lol)
Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence.  -Ronald reagan

 

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