Schrag sale

Doc said:

blackdiamond said:

I can fairly confidentally say that I can speak the words of someone who, 20 yrs ago was as close to Schag's as anyone, and knew as much about their operation as anyone did.  he told me, that 20 years ago the SS cattle were middle of the road, the old man had the philosphy that you'll hit them on the way up, and back again on the way down.  As far as current time,s not a clue. 

You speak of the Revival cow-- go back to the originator, she wasn't a Venture, she was a purebred MAINE>! 

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Correct me if I'm wrong Jody, but isn't "middle of the road " what you and some of the others on here preach? I mean if you can be as successful as the Schrags are with "middle of the road" cattle, why change a thing?
As far as the Revival cow goes, I would consider SS Revival as the "foundation". She is the one that has done so much for the breed and breeders, not the Maine cow. If you look at the progeny report on the two cows , you will see that SS Revival is the one that has 6 pages of registered calves not the purebred Maine cow.

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I have no problem with SS, hell, I'm using the What's Up bull here.

Go back and read my comments, I don't remember bashing the program once, I did comment on my distaste of What's Up's ability to take the guts out of his offspring, or atleast not 'add' any.

I eas curious about the lot 35 bred hiefer-thought she looked like a pretty good all around type female-with probably the better EPDS of the sale O0

I will call a spade a spade.....there is about 5 shorthorn breeders that are on here belittling every shorthorn breeder that has a market or a successfull market and demand for what they produce......gets old listening to  these 5 complain...........if they want respect.... Go earn it,that's what my dad used to say.  Go produce what u like and offer it to the world....  Until then  Quit making excuses on why no one wants to buy what u produce

mark tenenbaum said:

I eas curious about the lot 35 bred hiefer-thought she looked like a pretty good all around type female-with probably the better EPDS of the sale O0

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Mark, She was a pretty good kind of a bred heifer. She brought $3500 and went to Wyoming.

dogger said:

I will call a spade a spade.....there is about 5 shorthorn breeders that are on here belittling every shorthorn breeder that has a market or a successfull market and demand for what they produce......gets old listening to  these 5 complain...........if they want respect.... Go earn it,that's what my dad used to say.  Go produce what u like and offer it to the world....   Until then  Quit making excuses on why no one wants to buy what u produce

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Nobody is being belittled.  There just needs to be a disclaimer when marketing these kind of cattle.  It be like marketing a showbred Lab as a potential Grand Hunting Retriever Champion- its just not gonna happen.

These people you're referring to as being 'successful'  INITIALLY made their money OUTSIDE of cattle.  They flaunt their big wig as if it were earned in Cattle. *vice #1.  This gives the ILLUSION to the unknowing commoner that "their cattle must be good." vice #2. This along with deceitful marketing practices inflates prices and poisons the water w/ koolaid. *vice #3. 

SHOW ME ONE OUTFIT THAT MADE THEIR MONEY IN CATTLE THAT ARE SELLING $20,000 HEIFERS.  YOU CANT DO IT!

I will continue to belittle breeders that fraudulently market their doll-house cattle as the real deal.

Your true colors are shining bright. Keep your head in the sand and your eyes closed.....keep complaining and coming up with excuses.

dogger said:

Your true colors are shining bright. Keep your head in the sand and your eyes closed.....keep complaining and coming up with excuses.

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sheep

-XBAR- said:

dogger said:

I will call a spade a spade.....there is about 5 shorthorn breeders that are on here belittling every shorthorn breeder that has a market or a successfull market and demand for what they produce......gets old listening to  these 5 complain...........if they want respect.... Go earn it,that's what my dad used to say.  Go produce what u like and offer it to the world....   Until then  Quit making excuses on why no one wants to buy what u produce

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Nobody is being belittled.  There just needs to be a disclaimer when marketing these kind of cattle.  It be like marketing a showbred Lab as a potential Grand Hunting Retriever Champion- its just not gonna happen.

These people you're referring to as being 'successful'  INITIALLY made their money OUTSIDE of cattle.  They flaunt their big wig as if it were earned in Cattle. *vice #1.  This gives the ILLUSION to the unknowing commoner that "their cattle must be good." vice #2. This along with deceitful marketing practices inflates prices and poisons the water w/ koolaid. *vice #3.  

SHOW ME ONE OUTFIT THAT MADE THEIR MONEY IN CATTLE THAT ARE SELLING $20,000 HEIFERS.  YOU CANT DO IT!

I will continue to belittle breeders that fraudulently market their doll-house cattle as the real deal.

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My question is why does anyone have to be belittled? Is there not room in this or any other breed for anyone who wants to be involved? Is it not possible for you or anyone else to sell some cattle at good prices if that is what you want to do? I maintain that any breed requires a certain number of people involved who have made their money somewhere else. For example, when there is a Simmental or Angus sale that had a great average in your area, this actually attracts more people wanting to get into that breed. There is a trickle down affect from success that benefits everyone in a breed. There is also a trickle up affect when there is a poor sale, which means it will reduce the value of other good cattle in your area.  

Several years ago, I received a good lesson. I had a heifer calf that I thought was unusually good and one of our visitors happened to mention her to a breeder from Texas. We live a long ways from Texas!  This man from Texas phoned and asked me if she was as good as a couple of heifers that had just sold in a sale in the US for $15,000 each. I told him that I had not seen those heifers and he would have to see for himself. I also told him I was asking $15,000 for my heifer, as I did not think I had anything to lose. This man phoned early the next morning and told me he was on his way north to look at my heifer, and he arrived the following morning. When he saw the heifer, within a few seconds of seeing her, he said he would buy the heifer providing I  would sell a flush in her dam as well. I made sure the flush was reasonably priced as I did not want to mess up the deal. The lesson I learned was that he told me that if I had asked $5000 ( or less) for my heifer, he would not have driven that far as he would have thought he could buy heifers like that much closer to him. Fortunately, the heifer did very well when shown in the US and his daughter won almost $20,000 in college scholarship funding with her the next year.

So if someone raises their cattle different from you or sells them to a different clientel than you do, how does it affect you? Why must they be belittled in any way? Personally, when I see someone else selling their cattle for very good prices, I am very pleased as I know it helps the price of my cattle at home.  Good sales promote good markets everywhere, especially for cattle of good quality. When I see someone belittling a fellow breeder, I pass it off as probably envy of their success and their attempt to bring these breeders down closer to their own level.  I feel that success, by anyone, should be applauded. This business is not easy, so why on earth would you have to belittle someone else who does things different that you do. It makes no sense at all... and actually will drive potential buyers and people interested in your breed, away. I would also suggest that you be very careful when you suggest that anyone is being fraudulent.  I could name a couple of the very best sales each year in the Shorthorn deal, that are owned by two families that in my opinion have about as much integrity as anyone I know in the beef business.I do not believe there is anything fraudulent in what happens in their sales,and the sale prices depict thier reputations and is simply supply and demand economics being displayed in a cattle sale.  And remember, the cattle business is also a people business. People generally buy cattle from people they like. If someone is constantly belittling other breeders or complaining about everything happening around them, they will find it hard to find any success.  But then, it probably wouldn't be their fault, but it would because some other people happened to have more success than they did!

A cow under et doesn't have to do alot of things. She doesn't have to calve herself. She doesn't have to milk. She doesn't have to have a functional udder. She doesn't have to survive in range conditions. She doesn't have to breed back naturally. She gets special treatment cause she's special. Some poor donor cow has to give birth to the 120# cracker jack....she doesn't. Some people do et the older cow that actually proved her worth with enviromental pressures placed on her but the showring people don't do that. It like raising Alpaca's. That was my point.

aj said:

A cow under et doesn't have to do alot of things. She doesn't have to calve herself. She doesn't have to milk. She doesn't have to have a functional udder. She doesn't have to survive in range conditions. She doesn't have to breed back naturally. She gets special treatment cause she's special. Some poor donor cow has to give birth to the 120# cracker jack....she doesn't. Some people do et the older cow that actually proved her worth with enviromental pressures placed on her but the showring people don't do that. It like raising Alpaca's. That was my point.

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aj... I see your point, and I agree with most of it, but what is wrong with a person using ET as a method to improve your markets and success of your breeding program.  In my case, ET has become a very important part of my operation. Most of my embryos sell to people I have never met, or even talked with. Most of my sales are done by email and our website. ET has allowed me to improve my herd at a faster pace. My donor cows have proven themselves before they go to ET. I will have about a dozen calves next spring from one of my best producing cows. ET has also allowed me to sell embryos from her to 5 countries this year alone. ET has made the entire world become my marketplace. I have sold embryos to 2 US states and 3 seperate sales to the UK in the past week alone. ET has allowed me to continue to make my living from my cows, without any additional hired help... which in this area is totally impossible to find.

As I see it, ET is just a modern marketing technology, and whether you like it or not, it has become the method of choice for movement of genetics around the world. In 2012, we have moved over 300 embryos, to many parts of Canada and the US, to Scotland, England, Ireland, Wales, Australia, New Zealand and Germany. I have said that ET is not for everyone, and it creates many financial problems for some people. My ET bill makes my knees buckle from time to time, but I also believe this helps me become a better marketer. So I see what you are saying, but I will also say that ET has a definite place in the industry. It will not go away, and no one has to use it if they don't want to do so.

In regards to ET-and the AJ-JustinTime Dialouge I have to chime in-which I normally dont on anything this sophistcated. I see validity in both positins-AJ is right down the line on pretty much everything he wrote-even though the spirit of his answers is basically sensatonalist at the least ;and the manner and freedom in which people maintain thier cattle becomes hie self-appointed concern. We are all reasonably aware of the International scope of JustinTime"s embryo marketing-although I think hes lightyears beyond a gosh-n-gollies newbee marketeer of bovine product: and most likely one of the top international embryo deals (SHORTHORN) in the world. That being said-it shoudnt matter what circumstances a cow has to come from,work her way through,wait 5 hours to prove it was an unassisted birth-and all the petty s$%%^&*t some breeders put these animals through for the sake of various documentation,vicariously changing the natuaral progession of "what is",etc. If you like the line of cattle, you want a number of daughters for youre herd, you want to sell embryos WHATEVER-it really shouldnt be anyones damn business how you keep youre cows, or what youre ultimate goals are-they are your cows- O0

-XBAR- said:

Nobody is being belittled.  There just needs to be a disclaimer when marketing these kind of cattle.  It be like marketing a showbred Lab as a potential Grand Hunting Retriever Champion- its just not gonna happen.

These people you're referring to as being 'successful'  INITIALLY made their money OUTSIDE of cattle.  They flaunt their big wig as if it were earned in Cattle. *vice #1.  This gives the ILLUSION to the unknowing commoner that "their cattle must be good." vice #2. This along with deceitful marketing practices inflates prices and poisons the water w/ koolaid. *vice #3. 

SHOW ME ONE OUTFIT THAT MADE THEIR MONEY IN CATTLE THAT ARE SELLING $20,000 HEIFERS.  YOU CANT DO IT!

I will continue to belittle breeders that fraudulently market their doll-house cattle as the real deal.

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Well to start off with , the 1st TWO outfits I can think of is Schrags and Horseshoe Creek. I think that JIT has stated before that he has never done anything but raise cattle. Man , I just don't understand why some people have to be so petty and jealous? How does this affect you and your cattle operation?

I honestly feel like the type of cattle in discussion are a threat to the commercial viability of the shorthorn breed. 

-XBAR- said:

I honestly feel like the type of cattle in discussion are a threat to the commercial viability of the shorthorn breed. 

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Maybe some of them are a threat to the commercial viability of the Shorthorn breed, but how is that different than in any other breed? I believe there is a place for all types in this and any breed. Yes, there are some cattle that cannot work in some environments. but how has this changed over the decades. I don't think it has changed at all over the years. A rancher in West Texas or the range lands of the West will select cattle he knows will work in his operation. If that is your potential market, it is up to you to select the cattle that will produce the type of animals required. The animals winning the shows should have no affect on what you do or who you sell to. Good grief, this is a huge continent and there is lots and lots of room for anyone and everyone to raise what they want to raise and they can do it without affecting anyone else.

dogger said:

I will call a spade a spade.....there is about 5 shorthorn breeders that are on here belittling every shorthorn breeder that has a market or a successfull market and demand for what they produce......gets old listening to  these 5 complain...........if they want respect.... Go earn it,that's what my dad used to say.  Go produce what u like and offer it to the world....   Until then  Quit making excuses on why no one wants to buy what u produce

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(thumbsup) (thumbsup) I agree, it truly gets old day after day, post after post a few people always have to try to impress upon others their way of thinking as the only right way. I had hoped that after the election this might abate just a bit,not the first time of been wrong I can assure you. Whether you are discussing cattle,hunting dogs,politics,child rearing,pickup trucks or whatever. You are never going to get everyone to agree nor should they. Raise what you want, how you want.Be thankful for what you have,thankful for what your cattle bring when you go to sell them. Be thankful everyone doesn't raise your "kind' of cattle for if they did you would seem not nearly as wise or "important to the cattle industry as you conclude yourself to be.I've never raised anything in my life that a quarter of the people on here would be jealous of,but I'm as proud of my herd as anyone is of their own.Pride may be my 1 of seven deadly sins as envy is someone else's. I'm happy when my family does well and am similarly happy when a friend or neighbor does as well or even better. Maybe instead of force feeding the rest of us simple minded folk with your constant barrage of knowlege that we are inherently too dense to receive and or appreciate to the level you command. Maybe you can get Kit Pharo to start a forum on his site, or better yet start your own.You can call it "pasture cattle planet" you can use that if ya like it. maybe the rest of the rest of the world (bovine infidels) that neither agree or disagree with you and your ideals can read it.Maybe we can glean something from your purported and unsolicited genius and somehow apply it to our own cows. I feel reasonably sure that we wont tell you how crazy we may or may not think the idea of weaning your herd from what ration we were feeding to a steady diet of sarcasm and sagebrush is , And little chance of someone reflecting the same hue of green that some  here beam like a beacon of discontent. Or you could do the opposite and just not let us read it.We can raise our Llamas, alpacas, miniature herefords and show cattle in the dark.
"Never hate people who are jealous of you. But respect their jealousy because they are the ones that think you are better than they are"-not sure

I would agree that Schrags and JIT are top programs......old school programs. I think they both use ET pretty effienctly. But if you go to a Shorthorn sale now adays all they sell is embryos. Half the people don't own cows.....let alone apply enviromental pressure selection to their cattle. Cattle that are on a showfeed ration their entire life are worthless genetics to beef industry. Cows are for forage. I grant that cows are fun to show and it is in itself an industry but halter cattle are halter cattle.....nothing more and nothing less. I admire Schrags and jit.....the are long time shorthorn families. I'm talking about the guy that has one shorthorn cow and one heatseeker cow and one herford cow and all they do is embryo transplant and they never apply enviromental pressure. Dogger.....I guess you have to just get me banned. I have heard that I was good for ratings. Call a spade a spade.

justintime said:

-XBAR- said:

I honestly feel like the type of cattle in discussion are a threat to the commercial viability of the shorthorn breed. 

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Maybe some of them are a threat to the commercial viability of the Shorthorn breed, but how is that different than in any other breed? I believe there is a place for all types in this and any breed. Yes, there are some cattle that cannot work in some environments. but how has this changed over the decades. I don't think it has changed at all over the years. A rancher in West Texas or the range lands of the West will select cattle he knows will work in his operation. If that is your potential market, it is up to you to select the cattle that will produce the type of animals required. The animals winning the shows should have no affect on what you do or who you sell to. Good grief, this is a huge continent and there is lots and lots of room for anyone and everyone to raise what they want to raise and they can do it without affecting anyone else.

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It effects us all because we all market our product under the same "shorthorn" name.

What I don't understand is everyone that is complaining about these cattle not being calved out on range or these cows not being able to survive range conditions don't understand the pasture conditions in South Dakota.  We run cattle in New Mexico where you run 3 or 4 AU per section.  In Oklahoma where we run 1 cow to about 5 acres year round.  And with my father in law who lives in SE South Dakota where he runs 120 cows per 80 of grass most years in the summer.    You need very different types of cows in all three locations to be profitable.  If Schrags were to try and run the type of cow we run in New Mexico or West Texas they would be penalized so hard at the sale barn they couldn't make it work.  Whether they are black blue or purple, color wouldn't matter.  Schrags need to run whatever kind of cow they can be the most profitable with.  If everyone ran the same type of cow it would put little guys out of the seedstock business. 

Joshua

I really don't see anyone belittling anyone. It's a good debate with valid points from both sides. Why would SS change what they are doing? In all my years I've never heard one negative thing about them. I don't see anyone bashing. A few bad apples can spoil the bunch anywhere. Your either part of the problem or part of the solution. And the problem doesn't stem from person per say. It's the negative stigma shorthorns have in the commercial sector. IMO its a lot a BS but it's there. So if your knocking em dead doing what your doing, keep doing! If your not maybe exploring different genetics to meet another need is a viable option.



Peace, love, lollipops and sunshine folks.

trevorgreycattleco said:

I really don't see anyone belittling anyone.
Peace, love, lollipops and sunshine folks.

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I don't think anyone has belittled anyone in this thread. My comments were directed at the comment made by XBar where he states that he will continue to belittle breeders who fraudulently market their doll house cattle. My comments were only that I do not see why anyone has to be belittled. It doesn't serve any purpose.