Shorthorn calving ease issues or not?

sjcattleco · Jul 19, 2011

Yes i do! Calves are pretty good.. had a little bad luck last winter... had several cows come up open due to a vaccination mistake.... We got hit with harjo bovis and I thought I vaccinated for it but in reality I didn't..... Just b/c the bottle says harjo doesn't mean its the right one!

BTW my investment in the Muridale genetics is looking like a winner! if anyone is looking I have a solid red bull calf that is BAD A$$ and I will be keeping American Muscle's maternal brother out of him.. that will be the third bull calf we have kept out of my Pandora cow and I plan on linebreeding to her over the next 5-7 yrs

Not a bad deal... linebreed to a proven cow that has NEVER had an 80 lb calf and always raises a good one!

how is your bull doing... I still have all those pics you sent in my email... Just looked at them the other day...

Will · Jul 19, 2011

Send me some picture when you get them. What was your investment? I do not know what muridel genetics you are using.
He looks good. He has held together well considering he is out with cows on fescue in 100 weather. We put him in with 10 head. I never know how a bull or cow will do when we bring them down here and put them out on our grass.
I have a MM Delco (full brother to Radio active)bull calf out of a gizmo cow that we are very excited about. We are waiting to see his TH and PHA status before we get to fired up.
I feel your pain on the vaccines. Several years ago we had a few open cows and to come to find out they had a strain of lepto usually only found in deer.

sjcattleco · Jul 19, 2011

Will said:
Send me some picture when you get them. What was your investment? I do not know what muridel genetics you are using.
He looks good. He has held together well considering he is out with cows on fescue in 100 weather. We put him in with 10 head. I never know how a bull or cow will do when we bring them down here and put them out on our grass.
I have a MM Delco (full brother to Radio active)bull calf out of a gizmo cow that we are very excited about. We are waiting to see his TH and PHA status before we get to fired up.
I feel your pain on the vaccines. Several years ago we had a few open cows and to come to find out they had a strain of lepto usually only found in deer.

I bought the pick of the bull calves out of the Muridale herd 2 yrs ago. bull is out of a Bonanza son named Briggs and Scot's Raggedy Ann cow a Buster duaghter. Really like the bull. Frame score on the bull is exactly what I hoped for! dispostion is excellent calves are really good but after 12 yrs of linebreding and outcross was sure to really POP.

Will · Jul 19, 2011

What are you doing with American muscle?

sjcattleco · Jul 19, 2011

Will said:
What are you doing with American muscle?

AM is good... we used him in May... He is now on vacation. We are using our Muridale bull our Elbee bull and a home raised bull that is AM's maternal half brother..

I am planning to get a good set of females in the next 3-4 yrs so I have about 30 with this current genetics to breed him to!

kfacres · Jul 22, 2011

I wanted to revamp this thread to the top=- thought it had some interesting reading for someone who's been too busy in the last month to get on SP.

I also wanted to encourage the rest of SP users to get their family members involved on this forum. I think that other than a couple folks-- it seems that family members and wana bees are the only ones thinking alike...

I think I'm going to get my wife, mom, brother, sister, uncle cousin, and everybody else involved on this site under different user names. A t least that way, from the outside person reading in- it looks like my opinions have a bunch of followers..

O wait, but I do have followers who think alike, about 6 of them on this page alone???

comercialfarmer · Jul 22, 2011

the truth said:
I wanted to revamp this thread to the top=- thought it had some interesting reading for someone who's been too busy in the last month to get on SP.

I also wanted to encourage the rest of SP users to get their family members involved on this forum. I think that other than a couple folks-- it seems that family members and wana bees are the only ones thinking alike...

I think I'm going to get my wife, mom, brother, sister, uncle cousin, and everybody else involved on this site under different user names. A t least that way, from the outside person reading in- it looks like my opinions have a bunch of followers..

O wait, but I do have followers who think alike, about 6 of them on this page alone???

The voices in your own head don't count. The good news, is that there is medicine that might help.

jaimiediamond · Jul 22, 2011

Perhaps as I am not familiar with the bloodlines that are causing all these calving issues in the Shorthorn breed I am always shocked with the strong opinions but I think that it is 50/50 on the cow(heifer) and bull on why they would happen. In my opinion the best way to solve calving ease issues would be to keep very accurate well documented records. Actual BWs the weight of the dam so you know the BW %, how the calf was born was it assisted if so why? WWs and YWs as well. Body condition scores for in herd use etc. Pelvic measurements should be something we as breeders should record, and know on cattle we purchase or use through AI or ET programs. Shape should be something considered on both the bull and the females he is breeding for optimum calving ease. I know that there has to be good cattle sired by the bulls that have created this calving ease reputation and they should not be discarded but the ones that are hard doing, poor milking, have difficulty calving or cause difficulty should be let go as they are not economical on any scale commercial or otherwise. There comes a point in time when one should bite the bullet and cull, cull, cull.

If there is a problem the genetics aren't working and if the genetics aren't working it causes the whole breed issues. When breeders go and say all Shorthorn genetics are hard calving they possibly kill some commercial interest. I know that if I wasn't involved with the breed and our program I would really think Shorthorns are hard calving, hard doing, poor milking animals just from what I read on steerplanet. My reality thank heavens has proven otherwise.

JTM · Jul 22, 2011

Jaimie, all I'm saying is that I think too many people are trying to hide issues. Maybe this thread doesn't pertain to your herd since you don't use any of the genetics mentioned. I believe the genetics being mentioned are the popular genetics of Shorthorn Show cattle in the United States. I don't remember anyone saying that all Shorthorns are hard calving, bad milking, and hard doing. I think the debate has been whether or not certain bloodlines should be considered for particular performance traits when there have been large varying results from those bloodlines. I think we should call things as we see them and keep trying to improve our commercial appeal.

justintime · Jul 22, 2011

JTM said:
Jaimie, all I'm saying is that I think too many people are trying to hide issues. Maybe this thread doesn't pertain to your herd since you don't use any of the genetics mentioned. I believe the genetics being mentioned are the popular genetics of Shorthorn Show cattle in the United States. I don't remember anyone saying that all Shorthorns are hard calving, bad milking, and hard doing. I think the debate has been whether or not certain bloodlines should be considered for particular performance traits when there have been large varying results from those bloodlines. I think we should call things as we see them and keep trying to improve our commercial appeal.

I maintain that this thread doesn't pertain to a bunch of herds. I am not seeing the problems some on here are claiming to be commonplace. I recently visited Saskvalley who run 150 purebred Shorthorns and 400 commercial cows and they use Shorthorns on most of their herds. They winter on pasture and calve on pasture, and their cows never see a roof over their heads. They eat snow in the winter and only are fed hay when the winter grazing is done. They assist very very few births. There are many more herds like this, mine included. In my case, I use several bloodlines in my herd. Saskvalley are using several herd bulls that are deeply line bred to bulls like Huberdale Master Charge 42T. With all this talk of the calving problems in this breed, I am starting to wonder if some people are starting to get smaller pelvic areas in their cows, which could be a reason for some calving problems. I haven't used a bunch of Trump genetics but I have used some, and I reallly haven't seen any differences in calving problems or bigger BWs from this bloodline.I'm sure there are some that should be avoided but there are some sires from some other bloodlines that are the same. There as to be some reason (s) why some people are super concerned about these calving problems and others aren't seeing these problems. We have had several visitors in the past 10 days and I discussed this issue with everyone of them. All agreed that Shorthorn calving issues are much lower than they were 20 years ago. If this is true ( and I think it is!) then we must be making progress in the right direction. We have to remember that calving issues and birth weights have been derived from many years of breeding. Just using a very low BW bull is not necessarily the proper answer.

JTM · Jul 22, 2011

justintime said:
JTM said:

Jaimie, all I'm saying is that I think too many people are trying to hide issues. Maybe this thread doesn't pertain to your herd since you don't use any of the genetics mentioned. I believe the genetics being mentioned are the popular genetics of Shorthorn Show cattle in the United States. I don't remember anyone saying that all Shorthorns are hard calving, bad milking, and hard doing. I think the debate has been whether or not certain bloodlines should be considered for particular performance traits when there have been large varying results from those bloodlines. I think we should call things as we see them and keep trying to improve our commercial appeal.

Click to expand...

I maintain that this thread doesn't pertain to a bunch of herds. I am not seeing the problems some on here are claiming to be commonplace. I recently visited Saskvalley who run 150 purebred Shorthorns and 400 commercial cows and they use Shorthorns on most of their herds. They winter on pasture and calve on pasture, and their cows never see a roof over their heads. They eat snow in the winter and only are fed hay when the winter grazing is done. They assist very very few births. There are many more herds like this, mine included. In my case, I use several bloodlines in my herd. Saskvalley are using several herd bulls that are deeply line bred to bulls like Huberdale Master Charge 42T. With all this talk of the calving problems in this breed, I am starting to wonder if some people are starting to get smaller pelvic areas in their cows, which could be a reason for some calving problems. I haven't used a bunch of Trump genetics but I have used some, and I reallly haven't seen any differences in calving problems or bigger BWs from this bloodline.I'm sure there are some that should be avoided but there are some sires from some other bloodlines that are the same. There as to be some reason (s) why some people are super concerned about these calving problems and others aren't seeing these problems. We have had several visitors in the past 10 days and I discussed this issue with everyone of them. All agreed that Shorthorn calving issues are much lower than they were 20 years ago. If this is true ( and I think it is!) then we must be making progress in the right direction. We have to remember that calving issues and birth weights have been derived from many years of breeding. Just using a very low BW bull is not necessarily the proper answer.

I agree to a certain extent that small pelvic measurements may be a problem but only to the extent that first calf heifers can't have a 95lb calf unassisted. I don't know that we should expect much more than being able to have an 85-90lb calf on the first try. That is just my experience. You mention Saskvalley as an example and I have been somewhat familiar with what they have been doing. I have much respect for that kind of program and that is what I try to do (keep on pasture as much as possible). I feed a lot of hay in the winter with no grain supplements throughout the whole year. One of the things I know has an effect on the birthweights is the colder winters, but also my cows are sitting around eating round bales all winter with very little exercise. We feed a variety of low quality to high quality hay in the winter months. I do know that my fall calvers seem to always have smaller calves and calve easier. The big 115 lb calves always come in January or February. Most of my bull calves this year were around 105 lbs with the exception of a few. All were unassisted I might add but it is still commercially unacceptable for marketing bulls. Without looking at the numbers, we averaged somewhere around 95 lb birthweights this year using a Bloodstone son. this is about 7 lbs higher than a typical year.

kfacres · Jul 22, 2011

JTM said:
justintime said:

JTM said:

Jaimie, all I'm saying is that I think too many people are trying to hide issues. Maybe this thread doesn't pertain to your herd since you don't use any of the genetics mentioned. I believe the genetics being mentioned are the popular genetics of Shorthorn Show cattle in the United States. I don't remember anyone saying that all Shorthorns are hard calving, bad milking, and hard doing. I think the debate has been whether or not certain bloodlines should be considered for particular performance traits when there have been large varying results from those bloodlines. I think we should call things as we see them and keep trying to improve our commercial appeal.

Click to expand...

I maintain that this thread doesn't pertain to a bunch of herds. I am not seeing the problems some on here are claiming to be commonplace. I recently visited Saskvalley who run 150 purebred Shorthorns and 400 commercial cows and they use Shorthorns on most of their herds. They winter on pasture and calve on pasture, and their cows never see a roof over their heads. They eat snow in the winter and only are fed hay when the winter grazing is done. They assist very very few births. There are many more herds like this, mine included. In my case, I use several bloodlines in my herd. Saskvalley are using several herd bulls that are deeply line bred to bulls like Huberdale Master Charge 42T. With all this talk of the calving problems in this breed, I am starting to wonder if some people are starting to get smaller pelvic areas in their cows, which could be a reason for some calving problems. I haven't used a bunch of Trump genetics but I have used some, and I reallly haven't seen any differences in calving problems or bigger BWs from this bloodline.I'm sure there are some that should be avoided but there are some sires from some other bloodlines that are the same. There as to be some reason (s) why some people are super concerned about these calving problems and others aren't seeing these problems. We have had several visitors in the past 10 days and I discussed this issue with everyone of them. All agreed that Shorthorn calving issues are much lower than they were 20 years ago. If this is true ( and I think it is!) then we must be making progress in the right direction. We have to remember that calving issues and birth weights have been derived from many years of breeding. Just using a very low BW bull is not necessarily the proper answer.

Click to expand...

I agree to a certain extent that small pelvic measurements may be a problem but only to the extent that first calf heifers can't have a 95lb calf unassisted. I don't know that we should expect much more than being able to have an 85-90lb calf on the first try. That is just my experience. You mention Saskvalley as an example and I have been somewhat familiar with what they have been doing. I have much respect for that kind of program and that is what I try to do (keep on pasture as much as possible). I feed a lot of hay in the winter with no grain supplements throughout the whole year. One of the things I know has an effect on the birthweights is the colder winters, but also my cows are sitting around eating round bales all winter with very little exercise. We feed a variety of low quality to high quality hay in the winter months. I do know that my fall calvers seem to always have smaller calves and calve easier. The big 115 lb calves always come in January or February. Most of my bull calves this year were around 105 lbs with the exception of a few. All were unassisted I might add but it is still commercially unacceptable for marketing bulls. Without looking at the numbers, we averaged somewhere around 95 lb birthweights this year using a Bloodstone son. this is about 7 lbs higher than a typical year.

Josh, you really are not the 'normal' Shorthorn breeder- and I applaude you tremendously for that... Your thoughts at this point in the game, are well thought, IMO. Keep me updated on what kind of a difference Complete does compared to your other high powered bulls.

Jamie- I think you are onto something very key in your statement, and that something is very 'popular' in this breed... A lack of accurate documentation, and acceptance of the 'norm', being way off base from where it needs to be. the setback, admittance.

Grant, I wasn't around 20 years ago (well atleast not involved directly with the cattle), but if they BW of today are so much better than they were then... I'm sure glad I wasn't around! I wonder what the breed average, really is? 90? 95? 100? I bet our personal herd average for PB Shorthorn calves wouldn't be far from 95, of course the heifers have outliers.. but then again, they are Durham Reds, so they're not PB. I also imagine that the cow as a whole was much bigger back then. I've never popped out a calf, but I'd sure think that a 1700 lb cow should pop out a 120 lb calf much easier than a 1200 lb'er.

ETA.

commercialfarmer said:
the truth said:

I wanted to revamp this thread to the top=- thought it had some interesting reading for someone who's been too busy in the last month to get on SP.

I also wanted to encourage the rest of SP users to get their family members involved on this forum. I think that other than a couple folks-- it seems that family members and wana bees are the only ones thinking alike...

I think I'm going to get my wife, mom, brother, sister, uncle cousin, and everybody else involved on this site under different user names. A t least that way, from the outside person reading in- it looks like my opinions have a bunch of followers..

O wait, but I do have followers who think alike, about 6 of them on this page alone???

Click to expand...

The voices in your own head don't count. The good news, is that there is medicine that might help.

Well atleast I have an excuse to 'hear' those 'voices'... I'll admit it, I'm crazy in every aspect... but the real question is What's your's?

trevorgreycattleco · Jul 23, 2011

Some people want to continue to try and lead the hog to the ham sandwich. Ice to the eskimo. Nobody has said all shorthorns are hard calving. This debate is alot like Obama vs Boehner on the budget. Both sides are intrenched in their beliefs and dont want to budge. If your happy, truly happy with the results your getting and so is the banker, well, hard to argue that. The amount of money the angus breed generates is mind blowing for me. Check mate. If you have a good commercial following, chances are, you dont have a calving issue. The root of this problem begins with new breeders to the breed. All it takes is a wrong piece of advise from somebody bent on making a sale instead of recommending what that customer really could benefit from. Also many shorthorn herds are raised in a very supplemented enviroment which further hides issues. It doesnt take long for a pissed off person who had a bad run with shorthorns. They have a few cocktails at a show or wherever and , it begins. That little diddy Mr A@T wrote on the shorthorn bloodlines thread should be copied and published in the shorthorn country. Those are some feedlot friendly, range friendly, calving friendly genetics. We produce that on a major scale and shorthorns will crash the angus party.

Okotoks · Jul 23, 2011

sjcattleco said:
Want to fix Shorthorn CE problems?????

1.STOP BREEDING TO BULLS OVER FRAME 6. its a proven fact that no one had ever sold cattle by the inch! Breed to a bull that will cut 3 inches of air out from underneath a calf and not loose 1 lb of performance and you will be AMAZED at the benefits.

2. STOP BREEDING TO BULLS THAT PROMOTE BONE AND HAIR.... BONE is a negative trait period! Coarse boned animals have poor carcass quality and bulls that are big heavy boned sire calves that are not easily born! TH / PHA??? nuf said

3. QUIT FEEDING THE COWS!...... If your wonderful show cow needs to be fed grain at anytime during her productive life SEND her worthless A$$ to town! Esp now when they are worth over $1000 at the local market. Grain promotes problems! period

4.EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT BALANCE...These "Big" fish in the shorthorn breed put these sale catalogs together and they feature these little heifers that look freaky and they advertise them as " LONG GOOSEY FRONTED" like its a good trait... Guess what??? its not! that promotes high maintainence which leads to hard calving. learning what a beef cow and a beef bull is really supposed to look like will solve alot of problems.

5.MASCULINITY... Masculine bulls produce fertile and efficient daughters and masculine sons. 90% of the Shorthorn bulls seriously lack masculinity! Feminine bulls or bulls that would have made a fancy show steer produce poor quality daughters and poorer quality sons.

6. LEARN ABOUT LINEBREEDING..... Linebreeding is a lost art that should not be attempted by everyone... Linebreeding to "SHOW" genetics is a joke. Linebreeding to a crossbred is a complete waste of time. want to move calving ease in your herd in a positive direction? Buy semen or better yet buy a bull from a breeder that is at least 3 generations linebred, the herd is managed like a bunch of commercial cows, the cows are adapted to YOUR enviroment, his cows are at least 3 inches shorter than yours and you trust him to sell you a bull calf under 85lbs BW regardless of cow age. That bull will make a positive difference in your program.

Now all you guys can tear this apart all you want but I know these are points that are pretty dang hard to argue against!

There are a lot of useful comments and insights on this thread but these comments from SJ Cattle Co. are pretty right on for me, especially 2, 3, 4 and 5.
Point 1. is very valid re. selling pounds not inches and the actual size in some areas will vary depending on the market. The type of deep bodied easy fleshing and functional should not vary.
Point 6. Linebreeding is not for everyone but evry breeder should study their bloodlines. If they don't use linebreeding themselves they may want to consider a linebred bull that exhibits the qualities they like or need to enhance as a better way to introduce them consistently.
Again I agree with 2,3,4,5.
Also, I can appreciate a pretty heifer calf but when I get a sale catalogue I am way more interested in the bulls or mature females.Any new breeder should be looking for production not show ring flash. Is it me or are a lot of these really fancy fronted heifers also short in the hip giving the illussion of depth and capacity?

sjcattleco · Jul 23, 2011

Is it me or are a lot of these really fancy fronted heifers also short in the hip giving the illussion of depth and capacity?

That is completely correct!!! and it goes straight back to the sire...it is a direct result of using a bull that lacks masculinity. you will also find that they lack rear flank capacity which hinders their ability to process enough forage to be an efficient cow. Plus it makes for smaller pelvic area... Its just a vicious cycle....

ML · Jul 23, 2011

The most recent across-breed EPD table has been released by USMARC. I would encourage you to take a look as it is a pretty good measure that is used by a lot of commercial cattlemen to compare breeds. Shorthorns certainly have a lot of positives on the chart, but birth weight is not one of them. Shorthorns did drop in birth weight from the previous run and hopefully will continue to do so. With such a small population of Shorthorn cattle and limited data submitted, change will be slow.

RyanChandler · Jul 23, 2011

ML said:
The most recent across-breed EPD table has been released by USMARC. I would encourage you to take a look as it is a pretty good measure that is used by a lot of commercial cattlemen to compare breeds. Shorthorns certainly have a lot of positives on the chart, but birth weight is not one of them. Shorthorns did drop in birth weight from the previous run and hopefully will continue to do so. With such a small population of Shorthorn cattle and limited data submitted, change will be slow.

Really like your Cabela bull. I've got a 0761 daughter out of star glow 0754 that's due Sep 1. I'd love to have a pasture full of ones like her.

JTM · Jul 23, 2011

Okotoks said:
sjcattleco said:

Want to fix Shorthorn CE problems?????

1.STOP BREEDING TO BULLS OVER FRAME 6. its a proven fact that no one had ever sold cattle by the inch! Breed to a bull that will cut 3 inches of air out from underneath a calf and not loose 1 lb of performance and you will be AMAZED at the benefits.

2. STOP BREEDING TO BULLS THAT PROMOTE BONE AND HAIR.... BONE is a negative trait period! Coarse boned animals have poor carcass quality and bulls that are big heavy boned sire calves that are not easily born! TH / PHA??? nuf said

3. QUIT FEEDING THE COWS!...... If your wonderful show cow needs to be fed grain at anytime during her productive life SEND her worthless A$$ to town! Esp now when they are worth over $1000 at the local market. Grain promotes problems! period

4.EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT BALANCE...These "Big" fish in the shorthorn breed put these sale catalogs together and they feature these little heifers that look freaky and they advertise them as " LONG GOOSEY FRONTED" like its a good trait... Guess what??? its not! that promotes high maintainence which leads to hard calving. learning what a beef cow and a beef bull is really supposed to look like will solve alot of problems.

5.MASCULINITY... Masculine bulls produce fertile and efficient daughters and masculine sons. 90% of the Shorthorn bulls seriously lack masculinity! Feminine bulls or bulls that would have made a fancy show steer produce poor quality daughters and poorer quality sons.

6. LEARN ABOUT LINEBREEDING..... Linebreeding is a lost art that should not be attempted by everyone... Linebreeding to "SHOW" genetics is a joke. Linebreeding to a crossbred is a complete waste of time. want to move calving ease in your herd in a positive direction? Buy semen or better yet buy a bull from a breeder that is at least 3 generations linebred, the herd is managed like a bunch of commercial cows, the cows are adapted to YOUR enviroment, his cows are at least 3 inches shorter than yours and you trust him to sell you a bull calf under 85lbs BW regardless of cow age. That bull will make a positive difference in your program.

Now all you guys can tear this apart all you want but I know these are points that are pretty dang hard to argue against!

Click to expand...

There are a lot of useful comments and insights on this thread but these comments from SJ Cattle Co. are pretty right on for me, especially 2, 3, 4 and 5.
Point 1. is very valid re. selling pounds not inches and the actual size in some areas will vary depending on the market. The type of deep bodied easy fleshing and functional should not vary.
Point 6. Linebreeding is not for everyone but evry breeder should study their bloodlines. If they don't use linebreeding themselves they may want to consider a linebred bull that exhibits the qualities they like or need to enhance as a better way to introduce them consistently.
Again I agree with 2,3,4,5.
Also, I can appreciate a pretty heifer calf but when I get a sale catalogue I am way more interested in the bulls or mature females.Any new breeder should be looking for production not show ring flash. Is it me or are a lot of these really fancy fronted heifers also short in the hip giving the illussion of depth and capacity?

I liked that post too. The short hip giving the illusion of depth of body is very interesting too. I don't know about other people but I am definitely learning a lot from this thread. I don't claim to know everything or know better than other people but I am always looking to learn new things and then look for them in my cattle and confirm the the things I learn. At that point, we can make decisions that will improve our cattle going into the future.

JTM · Sep 9, 2011

Just had an ET bull calf the other day. My fall calvers are always lower birthweight. CF Primo x SS Augusta Pride 361 (Sonny x Warrior). He is a really thick, stout, good looking 115lb bull calf. <rock>

aj · Sep 10, 2011

A discussion board should be a discussion board............and not a propaganda board..........or a self promotion board. You can get propaganda anywhere. On this board I can get other peoples ideas from all over the world. As I understand it the cattle winning the shows have huge bwt's. Period. Right or wrong left or right I hear it's the truth.

Shorthorn calving ease issues or not?

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