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JTM

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2016, 12:01:30 AM »
Didn't see you had started a new tread.
Its not just the amount of data its the quality as well. In many herds possibly not yours I see this as a major issue. Small contempory groups with no variation in genetics or data value to make comparisons against. I think that is where the advantage would be.

The cost is in line with progeny tests in Australia. Both the Angus and Shorthorn tests cost $2500. The shorthorn test is limited to 6 sires and the angus 40 a year. If this is the first year they probably did have some sires lined up. Wouldn't be much point doing all the ground work to set up the trial and it fall over because no one nominates their sires.

I think their requirement for bulls that have been used some is good. You want bulls that are going to be used in a number of herds and have a impact in the breed. A problem with the durham project in Australia where they used a dozen or so sires each year is that too many of the nominated bulls never did anything in the breed or their home herd.
Good point here in that having reference sires with high accuracy, that have been used heavily across many herds, will have a massive influence across the data of many herds, thus making the data more meaningful. There is no use in putting a sire that is not freely available to the common market on the test as the results would have limited impact.
I think, initially, that 'bang for your buck' is of paramount importance in the initial stages!
I'm going to further this point! We need bulls that have been successful recently and that we know exactly what they are going to do. They have to be really careful to make sure they have low birthweight bulls in this sire test also because that is the future of our breed. We must continue to bring down our birth weights to the 85 lb. area consistently. That is why I recommended Kaper 4508, Task Force, and Coalpit Creek Leader 6th. I think we need to be looking at our proven accuracy low birth weight and calving ease bulls because we should already know that our low BW/CE bulls should also have the maternal traits, the marbling, and adequate growth potential. My concern is that we may end up with results that show no improvement on ribeye, no improvement on marbling, and actually make birthweights too high to be acceptable. That would be an all out catastrophe...

Offline wiseguy

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2016, 07:48:32 AM »
Josh I thought I made this clear when we talked, but one of the requirements is that a bull must be above breed average for BW epd, and at least 50% accuracy. And all participating Bulls need the new 150k genomic test. At least that is what Jake and I discussed. Now that he has moved on I'm not sure. Marbling was our second criteria for selection. All the Bulls you listed the breeders have been contacted.  Once again the U of I asked us to use "high accuracy" sires. Believe me when I say there was a lot of time and discussion put into this. The board, Montie, Jake, and I talked a lot about what Bulls and breeders would make this a valuable experience. No one is just throwing darts at a board and hopeing they stick. But remember even if the trial was free to breeders, the ASA can't make them participate!

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2016, 10:02:54 AM »
First of all hats off to Wiseguy for his efforts in establishing a test of this caliber.The positives I see are to provide breeders with a level playing field to see how their genetics compare against other lines and to help validate the 50k test.Besides the cost one of my concerns is that the test is designed for the more terminal type Shorthorn lines to excel and with that comes the risk of the calving issue to arise.I don't think the breed has fixed and reinforced that fix  to the point where the standards set for this test can prevent a train wreck.Case in point I had a visitor here recently who told me about a 138lb dead calf sired by a bull that meets the ASA requirements for this test.This is a great opportunity to make a positive impact for the breed but we must be careful not to do something that could hamper our ability to market this breed as a maternal component.
 For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.
Gary Kaper

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2016, 10:21:19 AM »
Shorthorn could look ahead. Angus accomplished all this and more with CAB, then created a genomic empire. They fund testing, design sires that fit the test, market the semen and pay premiums for the results.
But the future of beef is in Non GMO pasture beef- Brand That and instead of supporting office expenses at ASA or university projects, invest in Shorthorn Beef, testing the sires as their progeny pass thru the program and paying premiums for the results.
In the information age 'looking ahead' costs money and that is what ASA are billing the test participants for, no less and no more!
That's what I'm getting at. The project design really only verifies what is already known- what universities do best. So it is just advertising for marketing certain sires- that work for certain things. Will it really sell beef or create a market?
CAB is a business model that is attached to a branded end product. That requires venture capital far beyond $2000 per participant. I don't think the money is well spent unless whoever owns the cows and raises the calves gets a premium for the best ones.  The producer/stockholders make the investment and the company collects the data. ASA doesn't have much to do with- unless they chose to waive the WHR fees for animals in the program- seeing as the data is useful to the Association.
Is it possible to own stock in CAB? I'm not even sure how AAA is involved.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline wiseguy

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2016, 11:36:04 AM »

 For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.
[/quote]

I know Lovings have been contacted and Marty is aware of the trial. Doesn't he own 4508?

The other comment I have is that these are being bred to angus cows for fall calves. We all know the calves will be smaller because of this. Additionally, we brought up these concerns to Dr. Shike. His exact words were, "I'm not concerned after breeding this group to Simmental and Charolais Bulls without problem." I agree that still doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned. If you have a concern please contact a board member of the ASA.

I will say we wanted to keep back the F1 females and place them for future use. This is where I see great value, but that was not feasible or affordable at this point in time.

Once again, we have to start somewhere. People complain that the Association does nothing, then when they do something it's not the right thing.

Offline sue

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2016, 11:42:22 AM »
The sire test ran in Iowa during the Bolze/Hammett era included : Byland Mission, GFS Red Cloud, Waukauru Carnegie and a couple more. The data was reported after weaning but I am not sure if the kill data was ever reported?  Similar to the steer  data that was lost after the Executive Sec changed.  Best of luck to the participants.
Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline wiseguy

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2016, 11:45:52 AM »
That's what I'm getting at. The project design really only verifies what is already known- what universities do best. So it is just advertising for marketing certain sires- that work for certain things. Will it really sell beef or create a market?
CAB is a business model that is attached to a branded end product. That requires venture capital far beyond $2000 per participant. I don't think the money is well spent unless whoever owns the cows and raises the calves gets a premium for the best ones. 

Librarian don't we need to have proof that we have a premium product before we try and market it? What good is it to promote something, with nothing to back it up but opinion and word of mouth. If we are going to have relevance of any kind in the beef industry we must have facts and science to back it up. That is why the conversion and intake side of this trial is so important in my opinion. Yes we are not a terminal breed, but we still harvest our cattle.

Offline Duncraggan

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2016, 12:16:29 PM »
Didn't see you had started a new tread.
Its not just the amount of data its the quality as well. In many herds possibly not yours I see this as a major issue. Small contempory groups with no variation in genetics or data value to make comparisons against. I think that is where the advantage would be.

The cost is in line with progeny tests in Australia. Both the Angus and Shorthorn tests cost $2500. The shorthorn test is limited to 6 sires and the angus 40 a year. If this is the first year they probably did have some sires lined up. Wouldn't be much point doing all the ground work to set up the trial and it fall over because no one nominates their sires.

I think their requirement for bulls that have been used some is good. You want bulls that are going to be used in a number of herds and have a impact in the breed. A problem with the durham project in Australia where they used a dozen or so sires each year is that too many of the nominated bulls never did anything in the breed or their home herd.
Good point here in that having reference sires with high accuracy, that have been used heavily across many herds, will have a massive influence across the data of many herds, thus making the data more meaningful. There is no use in putting a sire that is not freely available to the common market on the test as the results would have limited impact.
I think, initially, that 'bang for your buck' is of paramount importance in the initial stages!
I'm going to further this point! We need bulls that have been successful recently and that we know exactly what they are going to do. They have to be really careful to make sure they have low birthweight bulls in this sire test also because that is the future of our breed. We must continue to bring down our birth weights to the 85 lb. area consistently. That is why I recommended Kaper 4508, Task Force, and Coalpit Creek Leader 6th. I think we need to be looking at our proven accuracy low birth weight and calving ease bulls because we should already know that our low BW/CE bulls should also have the maternal traits, the marbling, and adequate growth potential. My concern is that we may end up with results that show no improvement on ribeye, no improvement on marbling, and actually make birthweights too high to be acceptable. That would be an all out catastrophe...
Potential 'curve bender' type bulls need to be identified here and included for reference.

Offline librarian

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2016, 12:24:24 PM »
"Librarian don't we need to have proof that we have a premium product before we try and market it? What good is it to promote something, with nothing to back it up but opinion and word of mouth. "
Do out just like CAB- t he brand only sells Choice and better, red white or roan.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

JTM

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2016, 02:22:25 PM »
First of all hats off to Wiseguy for his efforts in establishing a test of this caliber.The positives I see are to provide breeders with a level playing field to see how their genetics compare against other lines and to help validate the 50k test.Besides the cost one of my concerns is that the test is designed for the more terminal type Shorthorn lines to excel and with that comes the risk of the calving issue to arise.I don't think the breed has fixed and reinforced that fix  to the point where the standards set for this test can prevent a train wreck.Case in point I had a visitor here recently who told me about a 138lb dead calf sired by a bull that meets the ASA requirements for this test.This is a great opportunity to make a positive impact for the breed but we must be careful not to do something that could hamper our ability to market this breed as a maternal component.
 For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.
Gary, thanks for bringing up credit to Wiseguy. I want to say the same. Thanks Wiseguy for the passion and the effort put fort to get this going. I really do hope this happens and it is successful. I also agree with Gary and that is actually what I was getting at in my earlier comment Wes. I think the intention is correct to go after low birthweight bulls but it needs to be aggressive. Curve benders like Duncraggan said like the bulls I mentioned are supposed to be. Our better than average birth weight bulls are a lot worse than the better than average Simmental and Charolais bulls. If you aren't a Shorthorn insider then you don't know this. I wouldn't take the word of the people of U. of I on this because we all know that people have been guessing on birthweights and using measuring bands to get bw's for far too long in this breed and those numbers are not accurate. We scale weigh 100% of our calves and we try to guess each one before we weigh them and it is still difficult after your 60th calf of the year. My bull, A&T Renegade is rated the #9 bull in the breed right now for birth weight and his calves have only averaged 78 lbs. That's the ninth best bull in the breed! I can't guarantee to them that he won't sire a few out of 15 that wouldn't be over 90 lbs. So if you start talking about average birth weight epd just exactly what are we talking about? I never got contacted about my bull either and he is one of the top bulls for low birth weight and calving ease in the breed when you look at progeny recorded. Ribeye and marbling too for that matter. I did received a letter about the program in the mail but nothing specific about Renegade. I wish this conversation could have started about 6 months ago. How long has this been in the works?

Offline wiseguy

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2016, 03:30:47 PM »
First of all hats off to Wiseguy for his efforts in establishing a test of this caliber.The positives I see are to provide breeders with a level playing field to see how their genetics compare against other lines and to help validate the 50k test.Besides the cost one of my concerns is that the test is designed for the more terminal type Shorthorn lines to excel and with that comes the risk of the calving issue to arise.I don't think the breed has fixed and reinforced that fix  to the point where the standards set for this test can prevent a train wreck.Case in point I had a visitor here recently who told me about a 138lb dead calf sired by a bull that meets the ASA requirements for this test.This is a great opportunity to make a positive impact for the breed but we must be careful not to do something that could hamper our ability to market this breed as a maternal component.
 For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.
Gary, thanks for bringing up credit to Wiseguy. I want to say the same. Thanks Wiseguy for the passion and the effort put fort to get this going. I really do hope this happens and it is successful. I also agree with Gary and that is actually what I was getting at in my earlier comment Wes. I think the intention is correct to go after low birthweight bulls but it needs to be aggressive. Curve benders like Duncraggan said like the bulls I mentioned are supposed to be. Our better than average birth weight bulls are a lot worse than the better than average Simmental and Charolais bulls. If you aren't a Shorthorn insider then you don't know this. I wouldn't take the word of the people of U. of I on this because we all know that people have been guessing on birthweights and using measuring bands to get bw's for far too long in this breed and those numbers are not accurate. We scale weigh 100% of our calves and we try to guess each one before we weigh them and it is still difficult after your 60th calf of the year. My bull, A&T Renegade is rated the #9 bull in the breed right now for birth weight and his calves have only averaged 78 lbs. That's the ninth best bull in the breed! I can't guarantee to them that he won't sire a few out of 15 that wouldn't be over 90 lbs. So if you start talking about average birth weight epd just exactly what are we talking about? I never got contacted about my bull either and he is one of the top bulls for low birth weight and calving ease in the breed when you look at progeny recorded. Ribeye and marbling too for that matter. I did received a letter about the program in the mail but nothing specific about Renegade. I wish this conversation could have started about 6 months ago. How long has this been in the works?
As I stated earlier the talks started mid May and we had to let U of I know within 30-45 days. If you received a letter I consider that contact. No specific Bulls were asked to join, just the owners of such Bulls. Once again the ASA reserves the right to not accept a bull, so if he doesn't fit the program he doesn't get it. If you have suggestions contact a board member or Montie.

Second, Dr. Shike is an outstanding cattleman with a solid cattle background in Angus genetics. I don't think that he miss spoke when he made his comment. Especially when they had used high growth Simmental and Charolais sires.

Finally, do you really think all of the people that recieved emails are misrepresenting their cattle and Bws? Is everyone a liar? I hold a lot of respect for these people and trust their word. I understand this deal needs to be right, but just because it's not how you would do it doesn't make it wrong. Put Renegade in and put your money is where your mouth is! Not being rude. I'm being serious!

JTM

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2016, 04:07:28 PM »
First of all hats off to Wiseguy for his efforts in establishing a test of this caliber.The positives I see are to provide breeders with a level playing field to see how their genetics compare against other lines and to help validate the 50k test.Besides the cost one of my concerns is that the test is designed for the more terminal type Shorthorn lines to excel and with that comes the risk of the calving issue to arise.I don't think the breed has fixed and reinforced that fix  to the point where the standards set for this test can prevent a train wreck.Case in point I had a visitor here recently who told me about a 138lb dead calf sired by a bull that meets the ASA requirements for this test.This is a great opportunity to make a positive impact for the breed but we must be careful not to do something that could hamper our ability to market this breed as a maternal component.
 For the record I bred Kaper 4508 and have never been contacted by anyone from the ASA.
Gary, thanks for bringing up credit to Wiseguy. I want to say the same. Thanks Wiseguy for the passion and the effort put fort to get this going. I really do hope this happens and it is successful. I also agree with Gary and that is actually what I was getting at in my earlier comment Wes. I think the intention is correct to go after low birthweight bulls but it needs to be aggressive. Curve benders like Duncraggan said like the bulls I mentioned are supposed to be. Our better than average birth weight bulls are a lot worse than the better than average Simmental and Charolais bulls. If you aren't a Shorthorn insider then you don't know this. I wouldn't take the word of the people of U. of I on this because we all know that people have been guessing on birthweights and using measuring bands to get bw's for far too long in this breed and those numbers are not accurate. We scale weigh 100% of our calves and we try to guess each one before we weigh them and it is still difficult after your 60th calf of the year. My bull, A&T Renegade is rated the #9 bull in the breed right now for birth weight and his calves have only averaged 78 lbs. That's the ninth best bull in the breed! I can't guarantee to them that he won't sire a few out of 15 that wouldn't be over 90 lbs. So if you start talking about average birth weight epd just exactly what are we talking about? I never got contacted about my bull either and he is one of the top bulls for low birth weight and calving ease in the breed when you look at progeny recorded. Ribeye and marbling too for that matter. I did received a letter about the program in the mail but nothing specific about Renegade. I wish this conversation could have started about 6 months ago. How long has this been in the works?
As I stated earlier the talks started mid May and we had to let U of I know within 30-45 days. If you received a letter I consider that contact. No specific Bulls were asked to join, just the owners of such Bulls. Once again the ASA reserves the right to not accept a bull, so if he doesn't fit the program he doesn't get it. If you have suggestions contact a board member or Montie.

Second, Dr. Shike is an outstanding cattleman with a solid cattle background in Angus genetics. I don't think that he miss spoke when he made his comment. Especially when they had used high growth Simmental and Charolais sires.

Finally, do you really think all of the people that recieved emails are misrepresenting their cattle and Bws? Is everyone a liar? I hold a lot of respect for these people and trust their word. I understand this deal needs to be right, but just because it's not how you would do it doesn't make it wrong. Put Renegade in and put your money is where your mouth is! Not being rude. I'm being serious!
Wes, I'm merely communicating here. I'm not just complaining to whine about stuff. I want to improve things. I did not even come close to calling any of those breeders liars and that is not how my comment should have been read. I was referring to the breed as a whole. The AVERAGE BW EPD would take into account all birth weight contemporary groups and scores. Only the liars themselves know who they are but this new system will begin to show who they are also. A sire test like this can do the same thing. This deal does need to be right, you are correct, so in the process we need to keep open to the voices of the breeders and not get too defensive when people have other ideas and ask questions as to why things are being done a certain way. This deal has been rushed and a select few are at the forefront. I applaud you for calling me out and telling me to put my money where my mouth is.  (thumbsup) Question is: If my bull did well would that really open a new trend or market in our breed? Only one way to find out...

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2016, 04:27:54 PM »
I'd like to join those who thanked you for getting this ball rolling Wiseguy. It might not be perfect, too costly for some, or even far from what some people had in mind, but it is getting the foot in the door to some current unbiased comparisons and the data should be a huge asset to the system. Are you putting Imperative in the test?

I've been sharing some shorthorn pics in front of hard core commercial guys, mostly black, and I think people might be surprised how they are starting to react. It's still a cold crowd and the animals absolutely have to be good animals, but it feels like it's starting to soften ever so slightly. A little more data never hurts when working towards encouraging some of them to try a red bull.

I hope some breeders go ahead and give it a shot.

Offline wiseguy

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2016, 04:36:06 PM »
Josh I wasn't trying to be defensive. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm simply stating that based on the integrity of the firms asked, and the data they submit to this point I see no relivance in what " others" are submitting. Why as a breeder would you pay and submit semen on a bull that you know won't perform because you have lied about the data. More importantly why send semen in on a bull and get no calves or minimal calves because they died at birth? I think that in its self sorts out the problem Bulls.

I'm sorry that this wasn't open to everyone. But there is time still to get in. After all it is all over the Internet, and apparently was sent out in the newsletter. It is rushed. I agree.

Finally, I want to apologize if I was rude. I feel as though the Association in the time allotted has done as good a job as they could. Yes others opinions are great, but remember everyone has one.
I do feel the ASA has the best goal, and that is that ALL sires do well.

JTM

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Re: Shorthorn sire test and progeny test at Univ of Ill.
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2016, 07:10:09 PM »
Josh I wasn't trying to be defensive. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm simply stating that based on the integrity of the firms asked, and the data they submit to this point I see no relivance in what " others" are submitting. Why as a breeder would you pay and submit semen on a bull that you know won't perform because you have lied about the data. More importantly why send semen in on a bull and get no calves or minimal calves because they died at birth? I think that in its self sorts out the problem Bulls.

I'm sorry that this wasn't open to everyone. But there is time still to get in. After all it is all over the Internet, and apparently was sent out in the newsletter. It is rushed. I agree.

Finally, I want to apologize if I was rude. I feel as though the Association in the time allotted has done as good a job as they could. Yes others opinions are great, but remember everyone has one.
I do feel the ASA has the best goal, and that is that ALL sires do well.
Wes, I think you make a good point that the people who will be submitting their bull are confident in what they are submitting. I have met most of them personally and I totally agree with your assessment of integrity. It will be really interesting to see how this plays out for sure!

 

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