Shorthorn Sires

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Dbirdsong

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I know I might be asking for a lot but I am looking for a shorthorn sire to AI my cows to that will improve utters add muscle and still produce show heifers. My cows are mostly go back to Trump. Their utters are just ok not great. The need more power. Any suggestions?
 

mark tenenbaum

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RyanChandler

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Add muscle and improve udders is going to be a tough one as generally the traits are antagonistic. 

Many of the trump bred cattle have less than desirable udders because of poor suspension.  The best hedge against this is to select a bull who has a tighter than average scrotum.  Im not talking about reduced scrotal circumference; just less neck.

 

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sue

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Davis Shorthorns said:
Yep- A&T Captain Obvious - disposition, vigor at birth and udders, typical comments by repeat customers in every sector: commerical, trump/show shorthorns and club calf breeders. Captain is TH, PHA and DS free. semen supply is low
 

Okotoks

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-XBAR- said:
Add muscle and improve udders is going to be a tough one as generally the traits are antagonistic. 

Many of the trump bred cattle have less than desirable udders because of poor suspension.  The best hedge against this is to select a bull who has a tighter than average scrotum.  Im not talking about reduced scrotal circumference; just less neck.
I'm not sure that scrotal shape relates to good udder attachment. The best udders we have ever had are daughters of Circle M Ghost Rider 10G and they are good from 2 years to 14 years of age. Here is a photo of 10G and he did not have a tighter than average scrotum.
 

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RyanChandler

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Okotoks said:
-XBAR- said:
Add muscle and improve udders is going to be a tough one as generally the traits are antagonistic. 

Many of the trump bred cattle have less than desirable udders because of poor suspension.  The best hedge against this is to select a bull who has a tighter than average scrotum.  Im not talking about reduced scrotal circumference; just less neck.
I'm not sure that scrotal shape relates to good udder attachment. The best udders we have ever had are daughters of Circle M Ghost Rider 10G and they are good from 2 years to 14 years of age. Here is a photo of 10G and he did not have a tighter than average scrotum.

I said suspension, not shape.  There's always exceptions but I would never buy a mature bull whose nuts hung like that.
 

Okotoks

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-XBAR- said:
Okotoks said:
-XBAR- said:
Add muscle and improve udders is going to be a tough one as generally the traits are antagonistic. 

Many of the trump bred cattle have less than desirable udders because of poor suspension.  The best hedge against this is to select a bull who has a tighter than average scrotum.  Im not talking about reduced scrotal circumference; just less neck.
I'm not sure that scrotal shape relates to good udder attachment. The best udders we have ever had are daughters of Circle M Ghost Rider 10G and they are good from 2 years to 14 years of age. Here is a photo of 10G and he did not have a tighter than average scrotum.

I said suspension, not shape.  There's always exceptions but I would never buy a mature bull whose nuts hung like that.
Well I guess that is what is great about breeding programs we can each use what works for us. Here are pics taken yesterday of a 13 year daughter of 10G's udder. She has a full sister to ACC General 4U at foot.
 

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frostback

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-XBAR- said:
Okotoks said:
-XBAR- said:
Add muscle and improve udders is going to be a tough one as generally the traits are antagonistic. 

Many of the trump bred cattle have less than desirable udders because of poor suspension.  The best hedge against this is to select a bull who has a tighter than average scrotum.  Im not talking about reduced scrotal circumference; just less neck.
I'm not sure that scrotal shape relates to good udder attachment. The best udders we have ever had are daughters of Circle M Ghost Rider 10G and they are good from 2 years to 14 years of age. Here is a photo of 10G and he did not have a tighter than average scrotum.

I said suspension, not shape.  There's always exceptions but I would never buy a mature bull whose nuts hung like that.

So do you look at how they hang in winter or summer?
 

RyanChandler

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From the pic, it doesn't look like that cow has ever had enough milk to have a strutted udder a day in her life.  The lower a cow's milk production is, the less need there is for a well suspended udder. 

Any month of the year you choose to look, this is bad:
 

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Okotoks

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Well that is her udder after being nursed but a cow does not need a big or sloppy udder to raise a big calf. Here is a pic of the old cow nursing this years calf. She is down in weight from previous years but still raising a good calf. The cow has two crosses of Diamond Captain Mark 27C the same as HC Vangaurd. 27C cows have good udders, certainly enough milk to raise a decent calf but below breed average on milk. I have had cows with plus 13 milk and that's way too much in our program because their udders did break down .The calf was born Feb. 13 and this photo was taken Mar. 23.
 

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RyanChandler

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I never noticed 27C being so low for milk.  -9 WOW!  I sure hope that number is unreliable.  Even being double bred 27C, Vanguard has a positive milk epd so hopefully that's not a future issue.  I would much prefer a cow that milks too much over a cow who's calf has more growth potential than she can provide.  I'm experiencing this first hand w/ my Vanguard calves.  Even w/ my oldest calf being only a month old, the calves out of the higher milking cows are doing better.  In other management scenarios, calves may get more feed directly which makes the cows lower milk production perhaps not as much of a hindrance.  My calves aren't big enough to eat cubes and they won't touch stockpiled grass from last year so their sole source of nutrition comes from their dam's milk at this point; it's imperative they get enough.
 

frostback

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http://www.charolais.co.za/files/inportfactorinbullselection.pdf

Scrotal/Testicle Shape: A common cause of low fertility in bull is abnormal testicle and scrotal sac development. The testicles should be symmetrical, nearly the same size, and freely movable in the scrotum. Small size or degeneration often affects one testicle only and is a serious finding.

There are three basic shapes in beef bulls. These are the "normal" or "bottle-shaped" scrotum, "straight-sided" scrotum, and "wedge-shaped" scrotum. Bulls having a normal scrotum with a distinct neck generally have the best testicular development. The normal scrotum offers the best opportunity for temperature control of the testicles. Often bulls with straight-sided scrotums are only moderate in testicle size. The straight-sided neck of the scrotum is generally the result of fat deposits that may impair proper thermoregulation. As bulls mature and lose condition, they will often develop a more normal scrotum. Wedge-shaped scrotums are pointed toward the bottom and hold the testicles close to the body wall. Bulls with this scrotal configuration have undersized testicles and seldom produce semen of adequate quality.

I would sure take a bull who has the ability to regulate the temp of the scrotum then one who has it too close to the body all the time which would decrease semen viability. Just because they hang low sometimes does not necessarily mean poor suspension.
 

knabe

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milkfat % could offset need for more milk with less and reduce requirement for a larger udder to create more milk?


personally, i would rather have the same quality calf from a cow with a smaller udder than one with a larger one.
 

RyanChandler

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frostback said:
http://www.charolais.co.za/files/inportfactorinbullselection.pdf

Scrotal/Testicle Shape: A common cause of low fertility in bull is abnormal testicle and scrotal sac development. The testicles should be symmetrical, nearly the same size, and freely movable in the scrotum. Small size or degeneration often affects one testicle only and is a serious finding.

There are three basic shapes in beef bulls. These are the "normal" or "bottle-shaped" scrotum, "straight-sided" scrotum, and "wedge-shaped" scrotum. Bulls having a normal scrotum with a distinct neck generally have the best testicular development. The normal scrotum offers the best opportunity for temperature control of the testicles. Often bulls with straight-sided scrotums are only moderate in testicle size. The straight-sided neck of the scrotum is generally the result of fat deposits that may impair proper thermoregulation. As bulls mature and lose condition, they will often develop a more normal scrotum. Wedge-shaped scrotums are pointed toward the bottom and hold the testicles close to the body wall. Bulls with this scrotal configuration have undersized testicles and seldom produce semen of adequate quality.

I would sure take a bull who has the ability to regulate the temp of the scrotum then one who has it too close to the body all the time which would decrease semen viability. Just because they hang low sometimes does not necessarily mean poor suspension.

As would everyone.  But there's a big difference in having an ideal "distinct neck" and having nuts like on those two bulls where the neck is so long, that they hang down below the hock. 


knabe said:
milkfat % could offset need for more milk with less and reduce requirement for a larger udder to create more milk?

personally, I would rather have the same quality calf from a cow with a smaller udder than one with a larger one.
I agree.  There's a lot to be said for the quality of milk the calf is receiving too.  And again, everyone would rather have the same quality calf from a cow w/ a smaller udder.  But seldom if almost never is that the case.  Select for cows that have forward volume as opposed to udders that just lack suspension and expand towards the ground and you can get more volume of milk w/o the negatives that are traditionally associated w/ larger udders.  This cow here has what I consider the perfect udder for me and, coincidentally, her calf is growing as good as any.  She looks pretty short coupled in this picture but she's actually quite long spined.  Vanguard did a great job kicking that ugly ass orange color too-
 

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knabe

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-XBAR- said:
Select for cows that have forward volume as opposed to udders that just lack suspension and expand towards the ground and you can get more volume of milk w/o the negatives that are traditionally associated w/ larger udders.

biggest fault of show cattle is an almost complete lack of forward udder volume.  time and time again, one see's "awesome" older females for sale from name producers with almost no forward quarter at all out of big name pedigrees who were used as changer bulls for some other trait. on the other hand, some of them have good udders and in general, the culling clearly wasn't broader focused, and coupled with bulls with no milk that got used heavily before the larger human population figured it out, too many individuals had too much "value".  one of the biggest culprits in the maine breed is

http://www.maine-anjou.org/pagedisplay.php?id=8162

he was supposedly chosen for having good depth of flank.

not only that, Inox, his grandsire could throw pendulous udders almost devoid of a forward quarter at all. don't know if any of the other bulls in his pedigree had udder problems. sad as the fullbloods were known for having milk in france.
 

Luke Bowman

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An EPD like MILK is only good if weaning weights are recorded and turned in with contemporaries. However, with MILK, to gain the most dependability, measurements (in this case WW) have to be turned in on both sides of the pedigree on multiple sires, for more than one generation-- that's how its derived.. We can sort BW, WW, YW really quick based on real time data and averaging in-herd sire groups through contemporary groups. But MILK is essentially the difference in a Sires WW and MGS WW based on the cows effect. The more accurate the WW's are on each sire of the pedigree, the more one can depend on an individual's MILK EPD.

Bottom line- I personally don't lean on it too hard if there isn't data to back it up -- in this case, a generation or 2 of unbiased, sires compared to one another, data.

Sorry, Jamie-- There goes my mathematician/statistician/politician tangent you referenced in an earlier topic..... ;)
-Luke
 
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