Simmental coat patterns

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HerefordGuy

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It appears to me that Simmental breeders have selected against piebald or spotted cattle in favor of black cattle with solid colored bodies (with perhaps some white on head and belly).
I assume this is to increase the chances of 51% black and qualify for Certified Angus Beef.
Is there a better explanation? Anyone have a reference or citation for this practice?
Thanks,
Jared
 

DLD

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Not sure that you could say CAB is why - the continental breeds started turning black before the CAB program even came along. CAB or no, commercial stocker operators and feeders like black.  The generally held perception is that black cattle marble better (thus are more tender and taste better) - and you can thank the Angus association and it's CAB program for that.  But there's a little more to it than just that.  There's also the perception that the colored up pb Simmentals (and Maines and other continental breeds) generally are bigger framed, later maturing cattle that tend to be less effecient on grass or feed than the British breeds, thus commercial producers whether they're cow/calf or stockers or feeders, want them to have that British influence.  The easiest and most obvious way there was turning them black.  Plus, everybody likes uniformity, especially order buyers - again the easiest way there is by turning them all black.  Are all of those 100% always valid arguments?  No, that's why I said perceptions, but they're right enough to sell black hided cattle.

The showring has always liked black, too.  I know that right now alot of people like some painted up cattle in the junior shows ( mostly in steers and clubby type heifers),  but that's really just for fun.  It has next to nothing to do with the direction the rest of the industry (even the showring) goes.
 

Gargan

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DLD said:
Not sure that you could say CAB is why - the continental breeds started turning black before the CAB program even came along. CAB or no, commercial stocker operators and feeders like black.  The generally held perception is that black cattle marble better (thus are more tender and taste better) - and you can thank the Angus association and it's CAB program for that.  But there's a little more to it than just that.  There's also the perception that the colored up pb Simmentals (and Maines and other continental breeds) generally are bigger framed, later maturing cattle that tend to be less effecient on grass or feed than the British breeds, thus commercial producers whether they're cow/calf or stockers or feeders, want them to have that British influence.  The easiest and most obvious way there was turning them black.  Plus, everybody likes uniformity, especially order buyers - again the easiest way there is by turning them all black.  Are all of those 100% always valid arguments?  No, that's why I said perceptions, but they're right enough to sell black hided cattle.

The showring has always liked black, too.  I know that right now alot of people like some painted up cattle in the junior shows ( mostly in steers and clubby type heifers),  but that's really just for fun.  It has next to nothing to do with the direction the rest of the industry (even the showring) goes.

right on. when you send the spotted calves to the sale barn or send them to producers you are looking at a 10-15 cent /lb deductions also. on the big scale thats why they've went black hided.
 

GONEWEST

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I have raised Registered Simmental cattle since 1979. I bought the first 3 with money from my student loan.

The CAB program began in 1978. However it was almost discontinued several times because it didn't get the results they had hoped for. A man named Mick Colvin wouldn't let the idea go. And he and some guy I can't remember his name, but there was a board member who owned a famous steak house in New York city and those two convinced the association to stay with it. 1988 the Angus breed had one foot on a banana peel and one in the grave. Had mixed Holstein and Chi blood in, were running the famous "Elephant Ads" that talked about all the big continental breeds, while the Angus bulls at Louisville that year were big enough to step over any other breed. But the guy with the restaurant in New York and the CAB people at the Angus Association knew that they had two things no one else had. Name recognition among no agricultural consumers and black color. In the early 90's it began to catch on.

There were a FEW black Simmental cattle in the early 90's, or I should say gray cattle. People were breeding grays to grays trying to get a black and it seldom worked. Those turned out black were not always of the best quality. I was at Denver in 1991 when Steve Reimer named the first black Simmental bull ever to win Denver. I don't remember his name only that he was terrible. He was the only one there if I am not mistaken. A red and white spotted bull named "Firefox" was supposed to win but Reimer was bound and determined to make a black bull champion. He made excuse after excuse for the bull. Not long after that blacks began to be more common. In 1993 we had a black bull named Double Take that was calf champion at Denver and soon after there was a move to go to black cattle. In 1999 the Simmental association had huge program called Focus 2000. That was a time that many large breeders came together and decided to push for solid colored, smaller cattle as the breed was losing market share due to the CAB program. It was also the beginning of the "dumbing down" of the breed to Angus standards of growth and milk. The rest is history. the CAB program is the ONLY reason Simmental cattle are black. It is the only reason that many other continental breed cattle are black. They still have spotted cattle of all breeds in Canada and other parts of the world because there is no CAB program. Shorthorn cattle in Canada are viable commercial cattle because they don't get docked for color coat.There the feedlots love shorthorns as much as angus as well they should. CAB changed the American beef industry forever. Hats off to them, shame on everyone else.
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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:)
Interest matter. Always show curiosity for why a breed change your color coat in US, like Simmental, Limousin, Charolais....
But not understood well the explanation  ???
Until I know about genetics, the an unique change of color coat will not insert on animals marble and other characters of Angus breed. For this is necessary a cross with at least 75% Angus. So the Simmental are not more Simmnetals, they are Angus crosses! Of course market is the final objective.
Also many Angus are big framed low mature beasts in US, maybe due continental infusion on there. It's a two way road at final.
Not yet understand well why continentals lost your uniqueness breed character for a few dollaes more (maybe Clint can explain!)
Regards.

<alien>
 

redsimmsnangus

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I find it all sad and amusing.  Now the blaze faced simms are more popular.  Why?  They establish breed identity!  Simmentals had breed identity before they sold their souls to CAB, but instead of improving their breed through selective breeding they created black cattle by mixing in Angus, which have market acceptance but are not even recognized as Simmental in some parts of the world.  How much genetic diversity and good animals were sacrificed in the name of coat color? Yes, the Simmentals lost a grand market share by going frame 10+ and having no muscle and guts. But they could have fought it, bred for a better kind, proved themselves, and not changed the color. It was just easier not to.  That said there are many wonderful black Simmentals out there that I admire, I just wonder what all the breeds would look like if a different breed had marketed themselves like CAB instead of Angus.
 

blackdiamond

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DiamondMCattle said:
Does any one know of any place still raising red/yellow and white simmentals?

I knew of a place or two a couple years ago, but don't think either is in anymore...

I have R/W semen in my tank though, willing to give it away...
 

firesweepranch

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DiamondMCattle said:
Does any one know of any place still raising red/yellow and white simmentals?

There are many! Steaks Alive out of Joplin, MO is one that comes to mind. They almost always have the back page of the Simm Talk magazine (which is free, by the way, for anyone interested in it!). Here is a link to the magazine, inside is the little paper you fill out for your free subscription and the add for Steaks Alive.  http://simmgene.ipaperus.com/OnlinePublications/Catalogs/LateFallSimTalk2012/
There is a bunch out of Texas also, Buzzard Hollow I think is one, 666 is another. Just look for adds for Full bloods. I know there are some big sales, like the Quest (IIRC) that bring better money for fullbloods than purebreds.
I have a friend that has often told me he would love to find a good yellow/white traditional simmy to take to Junior Nationals and win with! Just to prove a point. I know a lot of breeders that will breed back a purebred to a fullblood to get a better animal. There is an interesting article in the Register on page 32 about the US Simmental evolution, and tracking trends with API numbers. Amazing Papillon had an API of -19!!!! He was a popular bull in his day. Most breeders strive for an API of over 100 now.  
But, I like the look of the old Simmis, and even had a steer in high school that won champion market steer at our fair that was red and white and simmental! He was a beast!!!
 

GONEWEST

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Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:
:)
Interest matter. Always show curiosity for why a breed change your color coat in US, like Simmental, Limousin, Charolais....
But not understood well the explanation  ???
Until I know about genetics, the an unique change of color coat will not insert on animals marble and other characters of Angus breed. For this is necessary a cross with at least 75% Angus. So the Simmental are not more Simmnetals, they are Angus crosses! Of course market is the final objective.
Also many Angus are big framed low mature beasts in US, maybe due continental infusion on there. It's a two way road at final.
Not yet understand well why continentals lost your uniqueness breed character for a few dollaes more (maybe Clint can explain!)
Regards.

<alien>

If you lived in the US you would understand that marketing does not necessarily have anything to do with facts  :)
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Rio Grande - RS - Brazil
GONEWEST said:
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:
:)
Interest matter. Always show curiosity for why a breed change your color coat in US, like Simmental, Limousin, Charolais....
But not understood well the explanation  ???
Until I know about genetics, the an unique change of color coat will not insert on animals marble and other characters of Angus breed. For this is necessary a cross with at least 75% Angus. So the Simmental are not more Simmnetals, they are Angus crosses! Of course market is the final objective.
Also many Angus are big framed low mature beasts in US, maybe due continental infusion on there. It's a two way road at final.
Not yet understand well why continentals lost your uniqueness breed character for a few dollaes more (maybe Clint can explain!)
Regards.

<alien>

If you lived in the US you would understand that marketing does not necessarily have anything to do with facts  :)

Due to this I enter daily on this site to read the topics! Trying understand the cattle world, not only my regional operation.  ;D
 

GONEWEST

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firesweepranch said:
DiamondMCattle said:
Does any one know of any place still raising red/yellow and white simmentals?

There are many! Steaks Alive out of Joplin, MO is one that comes to mind. They almost always have the back page of the Simm Talk magazine (which is free, by the way, for anyone interested in it!). Here is a link to the magazine, inside is the little paper you fill out for your free subscription and the add for Steaks Alive.  http://simmgene.ipaperus.com/OnlinePublications/Catalogs/LateFallSimTalk2012/
There is a bunch out of Texas also, Buzzard Hollow I think is one, 666 is another. Just look for adds for Full bloods. I know there are some big sales, like the Quest (IIRC) that bring better money for fullbloods than purebreds.
I have a friend that has often told me he would love to find a good yellow/white traditional simmy to take to Junior Nationals and win with! Just to prove a point. I know a lot of breeders that will breed back a purebred to a fullblood to get a better animal. There is an interesting article in the Register on page 32 about the US Simmental evolution, and tracking trends with API numbers. Amazing Papillon had an API of -19!!!! He was a popular bull in his day. Most breeders strive for an API of over 100 now.  
But, I like the look of the old Simmis, and even had a steer in high school that won champion market steer at our fair that was red and white and simmental! He was a beast!!!

All of those are Fleckvieh strain of Simmentals and red and white, some have dilution but most of that has been selected against. And one of those or a cross with one of those will never win at a junior national. However, there is a division at Louisville for them and the Sweepstakes might have had a Fleckvieh division. But the Pie Rouge strain of yellow and white from Switzerland is about gone if not all gone from the US cow herd.

 

husker1

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Nebraska
I've noticed, in the last 3 to 4 years, many customers are interested in more and more white chrome in breeding cattle....both bulls and females.  Our chromed up ones the last few sales have sold extremely well.

Had a 3C Macho ET calf 3 years ago that we had in the cradle, ready to be castrated, due to color....just couldn't do it, as he was too good of calf in type....but he had white up to his belly on all 4 legs....Hesistantly put him in the catalog and got call after call on him.  Ending up selling for $2500 ABOVE the sale average!  My lesson was learned; even though white is not desirable to me, some customers like it...and the customer is always right.  Take that a step farther, and we had a chromed up bull last year bring over $15,000.

We've got one this year with a white strip on his shoulder, in addition to legs.  Two black goggle-eyes.  Really good calf.  Might even give him a try, even though it's against everything we've ever thought was right, color wise!

Everyone likes something different.


 

ALTSIMMY 79

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Spring Creek , Iowa
Im still a fan of the traditional color pattern,  no doubt about it. Dont have any around anymore but growing up thats all we had here. A person really needs to keep in mind that those colored up bulls sure can achive very desirable results when bred to those straight angus cows ! And lord knows there are millions of them out there! 
 

Cattle Cards

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DLD said:
Not sure that you could say CAB is why - the continental breeds started turning black before the CAB program even came along. CAB or no, commercial stocker operators and feeders like black.  The generally held perception is that black cattle marble better (thus are more tender and taste better) - and you can thank the Angus association and it's CAB program for that.  But there's a little more to it than just that.  There's also the perception that the colored up pb Simmentals (and Maines and other continental breeds) generally are bigger framed, later maturing cattle that tend to be less effecient on grass or feed than the British breeds, thus commercial producers whether they're cow/calf or stockers or feeders, want them to have that British influence.  The easiest and most obvious way there was turning them black.  Plus, everybody likes uniformity, especially order buyers - again the easiest way there is by turning them all black.  Are all of those 100% always valid arguments?  No, that's why I said perceptions, but they're right enough to sell black hided cattle.

The showring has always liked black, too.  I know that right now alot of people like some painted up cattle in the junior shows ( mostly in steers and clubby type heifers),  but that's really just for fun.  It has next to nothing to do with the direction the rest of the industry (even the showring) goes.

Showing cattle in the 70's and 80's in the Midwest, with steers, if you wanted to win, they HAD to be black.  Period.  I know of a Chi cross steer that was the typical, white, brindle with black hide that qualified for the State Fair.  When it arrived at the Fair, it was black as night.  Won Grand Champion.  This was during the time dye, paint, graphite, etc. was common and not illegal.  IMO, all Continental breeds bred for black to compete.  There was no CAB program.  Our yellow or red and white Simmental feeder calves would bring top price at the sale barn.  Our heifers would show well, but it was rare to win a steer show with anything other than a black steer.
 

leanbeef

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Somebody hit the nail on the head when he/she mentioned identity. In 1994, when the cattle market crashed, our identity had been tainted with a lot of characteristics that were negatively associated with commercial beef production...big frame size, hard doing, late maturing, big birth weights & calving problems. All those things were associated with traditionally colored Simmental cattle. The only way to avoid the discounts was to change all the things that were identifiable and associated with those problem cattle.

I was at a Focus 2000 seminar in the late 1990s, and we heard a LOT of people explain why Simmental cattle did NOT work in their operations, whether they were cow/calf guys, order buyers, or feedlot managers. It was tough to hear, but it all needed to be said. I don't think anybody at the time was concerned with getting CAB premiums...we just wanted to stop getting discounts! After we stopped the bleeding, we changed the breed. Breeders didn't just make the cattle black, but I think we have addressed all the measures the cattle were being criticized for. Birth weights went down, calving ease improved, cow size & feeder steer size got smaller, efficiency & profitability improved at every level in the chain. And now that we have a viable product again, why wouldn't we want to brand it and separate ourselves from all the generic black cattle out there?

I picked my first heifer based on the fact that she was red & white spotted. I was 8 years old. I still happen to like colored cattle if they're good...I don't think it matters what color they are if they're good. And I don't care what color they are if they're bad! They're still ugly.

I bought our first black cattle in 1990, and I've always liked the blaze face better than the solid blacks. The reason we try to make solid black ones is because most of our bull customers send their calves to the local stock barn at weaning time, and if we can't make their calves as uniform as possible, then they aren't getting all their calves are worth.

I just bought a black & white bull to go on Angus cows, and he wasn't easy to find! I think as more people want to make baldies out of black cows, and if they understand genetics & want to make baldies consistently, there will be a strong market for black & white bulls. You can't use a blaze faced bull on Angus cows & have a lot of luck making a high percentage of blaze faced calves.
 

Cattle Cards

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leanbeef, I can't disagree with you about size and scale.  When we were showing steers by hip height, they'd gotten too big.  And a 1700 lb. cow was not going to wean a bigger cal than a 1300 lb. Cow and she cost a lot more to maintain.  But, Simmental, as well as the other Continental breeds were going black way before the nineties.  Again, IMO, the showring dictated in some part that those breeds go black to compete.  Influential  Simmental bulls like Steelman (1978), Coal Train (1981), Black Max (1985) an even Burns Bull X339U (1988) were big and black and way before the time you're talking...
 

GONEWEST

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leanbeef said:
Somebody hit the nail on the head when he/she mentioned identity. In 1994, when the cattle market crashed, our identity had been tainted with a lot of characteristics that were negatively associated with commercial beef production...big frame size, hard doing, late maturing, big birth weights & calving problems. All those things were associated with traditionally colored Simmental cattle. The only way to avoid the discounts was to change all the things that were identifiable and associated with those problem cattle.

I was at a Focus 2000 seminar in the late 1990s, and we heard a LOT of people explain why Simmental cattle did NOT work in their operations, whether they were cow/calf guys, order buyers, or feedlot managers. It was tough to hear, but it all needed to be said. I don't think anybody at the time was concerned with getting CAB premiums...we just wanted to stop getting discounts! After we stopped the bleeding, we changed the breed. Breeders didn't just make the cattle black, but I think we have addressed all the measures the cattle were being criticized for. Birth weights went down, calving ease improved, cow size & feeder steer size got smaller, efficiency & profitability improved at every level in the chain. And now that we have a viable product again, why wouldn't we want to brand it and separate ourselves from all the generic black cattle out there?

I picked my first heifer based on the fact that she was red & white spotted. I was 8 years old. I still happen to like colored cattle if they're good...I don't think it matters what color they are if they're good. And I don't care what color they are if they're bad! They're still ugly.

I bought our first black cattle in 1990, and I've always liked the blaze face better than the solid blacks. The reason we try to make solid black ones is because most of our bull customers send their calves to the local stock barn at weaning time, and if we can't make their calves as uniform as possible, then they aren't getting all their calves are worth.

I just bought a black & white bull to go on Angus cows, and he wasn't easy to find! I think as more people want to make baldies out of black cows, and if they understand genetics & want to make baldies consistently, there will be a strong market for black & white bulls. You can't use a blaze faced bull on Angus cows & have a lot of luck making a high percentage of blaze faced calves.

I would have to differ with you concerning the CAB premiums not being at issue in the FOCUS 2000 meetings. There is actually no premium to the producer, only the discounts you mentioned that we wanted to get away from. The premiums are in the wholesale of meat. The producer sees no premium, only discounts if he doesn't conform.

I might also mention that Focus 2000 in my view led to the dumbing down of Simmental cattle to Angus levels of growth and milk. For 20 years straight Simmental birth weights came down while weaning weights came up. Focus 2000 just insured that would no longer be the case for a while and this API index crapola will insure it never will. You know why Focus 2000 occurred AT ALL?? Large breeders like Dave Nichols had been trying to breed black cattle. Of course it was like selecting for any one single trait, if black cattle were the top criteria then the overall quality suffered. He had a whole bunch of nothing. Also, he was getting too many solid reds when trying to breed for blacks and at that time there was ZERO demand for a solid red animal, he had too many going to the stockyard. So he embarked on a tour of the country speaking at state association meetings on the ASA dollar. Supposed to be laying the foundation for these Focus 2000 meetings he preached to anyone who would listen how his animals were what we all needed and that everyone else's were "too big for the box."  Since he was so much smarter than everyone else, he would be kind enough to sell us all bulls before it was too late and the breed ruined for ever. The average number of head owned by a member of the Simmental association at that time was under 20, so a few breeders with 5 or 600 head could lead the association in what ever direction they wanted it to go.

All of these complaints from all the folks you mentioned applied to other breeds as well, Angus included. There show bulls could step over Simmental show bulls.  I might ad that the reason the 10 frame animals of ALL breeds came about was the midget Angus based cow herds were far from beef producing machines. The animals these giraffes were intended to be bred to needed to be bred to a giraffe. Of course as the commercial cowherd changed so did the need for what type of animal was required to be produced by seedstock breeders. I certainly have no problem with the size of the cattle we now have for the most part. But I have a problem that the only thing a Simmental can do better than an Angus of today is yield. That is offset by the Angus ability to grade. We can't grow faster, milk better or last longer. We sure cant have lower birth weights, so why have a Simmental?

As to your assertion that the breed got more efficient and more profitable, there is no data that suggests that small cows are more efficient.  Which do you deem to be more efficient, an 1100 pound cow who's calf weighs 550 at 205 days or a 1600 pound cow that weans a 650 pound calf? Its impossible to measure because the relationship of cow size to  maintenance cost is not linear. In other words a 1600 pound cow doesn't require twice as much to maintain as an 800 pound cow. It's very difficult to measure. MARC data says that there is only a 10% difference in feed efficiency between the most and least efficient animals. Growth is much like a machine that multiplies money. The more money you put into it the more money comes out. If you want a machine that only takes quarters and turns them into dollars that's fine. But a machine that takes dollars and turns them into 4 dollars is makes for a much larger number on the deposit slip. 4 and 5 frame animals are incapable of growth at that level, but it doesn't take a ten frame animal to do that either.

And as to your point to being more profitable, I would say the reason that type animal is more profitable is simply because its what people want to buy. It's not profitable simply because of type. It's profitable because it meets a demand.  If you had the same animal in the 80's early 90's that you have today  it wouldn't be profitable. It would have the exact same traits you tout as profitable today, yet no one would buy it, no one wanted those traits back in the 80's and early 90's.

The reason you make solid bulls is because thats what your bull customers want. The reason that's what they want is that if they are not, they don't get all they could get at the sale barn or where ever they choose to sell them. You'll never find a feedlot operator with any experience say that a lot of angus based (black) cattle will feed better or have better carcasses than a lot of Shorthorn cattle that are every combination of red and white you could imagine. The very antithesis of uniformity.  But he won't pay you as much for them. Why? CAB period. 
 
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