simsolution bull

-XBAR- said:

Not to ever agree w/ Gonewest, but crossing 'something' in the manner you've suggested is mongrelizing.  You're heifer is already comprised of Angus, Simmental, Maine, and chi- and at UNSTABALIZED percentages at that.  You now want to breed her to another bull whose genetics are unstable as well.  The resulting calf- by definition- would be a mongrel.  Anytime you breed a mongrel to a mongrel you have thrown all predictability out the window.  The fact that shes made up of 4 breeds does not make her a mongrel.  The fact that these %'s aren't stabalized does.

Click to expand...

I completely understand what you are saying. However, my heifer is a three way cross, she does not include simmental. She also is NOT a club calf. She is thick made and a great mother, and i think this has to do with the fact that she is over 80% angus. i know her exact pedigree and she contains so much angus that she is in reality not unstabilized. Her father is a fullback son and her mother is an angus x (angus x chill factor). Her pedigree almost has no room to allow a calf that will be so unstabilized that it will be USELESS. I am not thinking of a homerun or a grand champion show steer. However, this cross will not make a structural, UNSTABILIZED mess. Both pedigrees are respectably maternal and calving ease, so i doubt the calf will be what you are thinking of. Also, if the heifer IS bred to a purebred simmental, this will still only register as a 50% and be just as mongrelized as one not registered. I do understand what your getting at though and i do not agree with gonewest as well.

Thank you Gargan and Leanbeef for giving me positive feedback. And thank you for that bull pic Gargan, i really like him and will look into him!

ALTSIMMY 79 said:

I agree Gargan ! Crossbreds are mongrels now to some i guess , WOW thats a load of crap!!! To each their own,  everyone has different opinions and i believe the original poster wanted some bull suggestions not criticism of their breeding ideas!!!

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Exactly my point! Crossbreds are the kings of the show world and now they are being known as "mongrels"? And you are completely right, i was asking for positive feedback, not criticism! Thanks for your support ALTSIMMY, Gargan, and Leanbeef!!!!

grandchamp58 said:

-XBAR- said:

Not to ever agree w/ Gonewest, but crossing 'something' in the manner you've suggested is mongrelizing.  You're heifer is already comprised of Angus, Simmental, Maine, and chi- and at UNSTABALIZED percentages at that.  You now want to breed her to another bull whose genetics are unstable as well.  The resulting calf- by definition- would be a mongrel.  Anytime you breed a mongrel to a mongrel you have thrown all predictability out the window.  The fact that shes made up of 4 breeds does not make her a mongrel.  The fact that these %'s aren't stabalized does.

Click to expand...

I completely understand what you are saying. However, my heifer is a three way cross, she does not include simmental. She also is NOT a club calf. She is thick made and a great mother, and i think this has to do with the fact that she is over 80% angus. i know her exact pedigree and she contains so much angus that she is in reality not unstabilized. Her father is a fullback son and her mother is an angus x (angus x chill factor). Her pedigree almost has no room to allow a calf that will be so unstabilized that it will be USELESS. I am not thinking of a homerun or a grand champion show steer. However, this cross will not make a structural, UNSTABILIZED mess. Both pedigrees are respectably maternal and calving ease, so i doubt the calf will be what you are thinking of. Also, if the heifer IS bred to a purebred simmental, this will still only register as a 50% and be just as mongrelized as one not registered. I do understand what your getting at though and i do not agree with gonewest as well.

Thank you Gargan and Leanbeef for giving me positive feedback. And thank you for that bull pic Gargan, i really like him and will look into him!

Click to expand...

If your heifer is 80% Angus and you bred her to a Purebred Simmental the calf would be a half blood Sim. So the calf would then be able to  be registered and shown as a Simmental rather than just a crossbred/market animal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a purebred also give you more Heterosis?

Go with what you feel, everyone has their own opinion and that's just mine.

BL Ranch said:

grandchamp58 said:

-XBAR- said:

Not to ever agree w/ Gonewest, but crossing 'something' in the manner you've suggested is mongrelizing.  You're heifer is already comprised of Angus, Simmental, Maine, and chi- and at UNSTABALIZED percentages at that.  You now want to breed her to another bull whose genetics are unstable as well.  The resulting calf- by definition- would be a mongrel.  Anytime you breed a mongrel to a mongrel you have thrown all predictability out the window.  The fact that shes made up of 4 breeds does not make her a mongrel.  The fact that these %'s aren't stabalized does.

Click to expand...

I completely understand what you are saying. However, my heifer is a three way cross, she does not include simmental. She also is NOT a club calf. She is thick made and a great mother, and i think this has to do with the fact that she is over 80% angus. i know her exact pedigree and she contains so much angus that she is in reality not unstabilized. Her father is a fullback son and her mother is an angus x (angus x chill factor). Her pedigree almost has no room to allow a calf that will be so unstabilized that it will be USELESS. I am not thinking of a homerun or a grand champion show steer. However, this cross will not make a structural, UNSTABILIZED mess. Both pedigrees are respectably maternal and calving ease, so i doubt the calf will be what you are thinking of. Also, if the heifer IS bred to a purebred simmental, this will still only register as a 50% and be just as mongrelized as one not registered. I do understand what your getting at though and i do not agree with gonewest as well.

Thank you Gargan and Leanbeef for giving me positive feedback. And thank you for that bull pic Gargan, i really like him and will look into him!

Click to expand...

If your heifer is 80% Angus and you bred her to a Purebred Simmental the calf would be a half blood Sim. So the calf would then be able to  be registered and shown as a Simmental rather than just a crossbred/market animal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a purebred also give you more Heterosis?

Go with what you feel, everyone has their own opinion and that's just mine.

Click to expand...

Your not wrong at all. But without seeing my heifer you cannot get a feel for what she would work with and how she would do. I am looking for something a little more clubby to add bone and cleanliness of neck. There are not many purebred simmis that can add this with being calving ease as well. I think that with the "semi-clubby" genetics, i would have a better chance of having something that i will like, steer or heifer. Without breeding her with sexed semen i could get a steer and do you really think a simangus showsteer would do well? no.

grandchamp58 said:

BL Ranch said:

grandchamp58 said:

-XBAR- said:

Not to ever agree w/ Gonewest, but crossing 'something' in the manner you've suggested is mongrelizing.  You're heifer is already comprised of Angus, Simmental, Maine, and chi- and at UNSTABALIZED percentages at that.  You now want to breed her to another bull whose genetics are unstable as well.  The resulting calf- by definition- would be a mongrel.  Anytime you breed a mongrel to a mongrel you have thrown all predictability out the window.  The fact that shes made up of 4 breeds does not make her a mongrel.  The fact that these %'s aren't stabalized does.

Click to expand...

I completely understand what you are saying. However, my heifer is a three way cross, she does not include simmental. She also is NOT a club calf. She is thick made and a great mother, and i think this has to do with the fact that she is over 80% angus. i know her exact pedigree and she contains so much angus that she is in reality not unstabilized. Her father is a fullback son and her mother is an angus x (angus x chill factor). Her pedigree almost has no room to allow a calf that will be so unstabilized that it will be USELESS. I am not thinking of a homerun or a grand champion show steer. However, this cross will not make a structural, UNSTABILIZED mess. Both pedigrees are respectably maternal and calving ease, so i doubt the calf will be what you are thinking of. Also, if the heifer IS bred to a purebred simmental, this will still only register as a 50% and be just as mongrelized as one not registered. I do understand what your getting at though and i do not agree with gonewest as well.

Thank you Gargan and Leanbeef for giving me positive feedback. And thank you for that bull pic Gargan, i really like him and will look into him!

Click to expand...

If your heifer is 80% Angus and you bred her to a Purebred Simmental the calf would be a half blood Sim. So the calf would then be able to  be registered and shown as a Simmental rather than just a crossbred/market animal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a purebred also give you more Heterosis?

Go with what you feel, everyone has their own opinion and that's just mine.

Click to expand...

Your not wrong at all. But without seeing my heifer you cannot get a feel for what she would work with and how she would do. I am looking for something a little more clubby to add bone and cleanliness of neck. There are not many purebred simmis that can add this with being calving ease as well. I think that with the "semi-clubby" genetics, i would have a better chance of having something that i will like, steer or heifer. Without breeding her with sexed semen i could get a steer and do you really think a simangus showsteer would do well? no.

Click to expand...

By no means am I trying to pick a fight here but two of the bulls you mentioned were SimAngus crosses which would result in calves that are high percentage angus, which would be a step below a half-blood sim. I'll just throw Upgrade and if you wanted more clubby, maybe Grizzly.

BL Ranch said:

grandchamp58 said:

BL Ranch said:

grandchamp58 said:

-XBAR- said:

Not to ever agree w/ Gonewest, but crossing 'something' in the manner you've suggested is mongrelizing.  You're heifer is already comprised of Angus, Simmental, Maine, and chi- and at UNSTABALIZED percentages at that.  You now want to breed her to another bull whose genetics are unstable as well.  The resulting calf- by definition- would be a mongrel.  Anytime you breed a mongrel to a mongrel you have thrown all predictability out the window.  The fact that shes made up of 4 breeds does not make her a mongrel.  The fact that these %'s aren't stabalized does.

Click to expand...

I completely understand what you are saying. However, my heifer is a three way cross, she does not include simmental. She also is NOT a club calf. She is thick made and a great mother, and i think this has to do with the fact that she is over 80% angus. i know her exact pedigree and she contains so much angus that she is in reality not unstabilized. Her father is a fullback son and her mother is an angus x (angus x chill factor). Her pedigree almost has no room to allow a calf that will be so unstabilized that it will be USELESS. I am not thinking of a homerun or a grand champion show steer. However, this cross will not make a structural, UNSTABILIZED mess. Both pedigrees are respectably maternal and calving ease, so i doubt the calf will be what you are thinking of. Also, if the heifer IS bred to a purebred simmental, this will still only register as a 50% and be just as mongrelized as one not registered. I do understand what your getting at though and i do not agree with gonewest as well.

Thank you Gargan and Leanbeef for giving me positive feedback. And thank you for that bull pic Gargan, i really like him and will look into him!

Click to expand...

If your heifer is 80% Angus and you bred her to a Purebred Simmental the calf would be a half blood Sim. So the calf would then be able to  be registered and shown as a Simmental rather than just a crossbred/market animal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a purebred also give you more Heterosis?

Go with what you feel, everyone has their own opinion and that's just mine.

Click to expand...

Your not wrong at all. But without seeing my heifer you cannot get a feel for what she would work with and how she would do. I am looking for something a little more clubby to add bone and cleanliness of neck. There are not many purebred simmis that can add this with being calving ease as well. I think that with the "semi-clubby" genetics, i would have a better chance of having something that i will like, steer or heifer. Without breeding her with sexed semen i could get a steer and do you really think a simangus showsteer would do well? no.

Click to expand...

By no means am I trying to pick a fight here but two of the bulls you mentioned were SimAngus crosses which would result in calves that are high percentage angus, which would be a step below a half-blood sim. I'll just throw Upgrade and if you wanted more clubby, maybe Grizzly.

Click to expand...

Is Upgrade calving ease? and i was thinking Grizzly but i have seen some grizzlys that would make you never want to see one again. I think the first bull is relatively clubby and i think his pedigree and his natural foot bone and hair will allow for what im looking for. Maybe i should have made myself more clear for what i would like. I want a semi-clubby (so mainly angus and simmi, maybe some clubby genetics too) heifer that is really femine and has a simangus "doner-ish" appearance. However, since you cannot tell which way the calf is gonna go,if it is a steer i would like a thick made steer that still posses clubby traits yet has the easy doing and carcass traits of angus/ simmi. Thanks. I realize your not trying to fight too haha and i appreciate the clarification. i learned from a very wise and popular club calf producer that you never cross a 3-way with a 3-way, so i was looking for something that will be a "semi-clubby" with a good birth weight.

From a practical and production standpoint, you get the most heterosis and the most breed complimentarity when you get in the neighborhood of 1/2 British & 1/2 continental. With an 80% Angus heifer that goes back to Chi x Maine, you're on the right track if you're thinking about a halfblood or 3/4 blood SimAngus bull. Adding a shot of Simmental does not "mongrelize" your project...instead, you should add some maternal ability without sacrificing growth or muscling. If you can keep the eye appeal and soundness, I think you'll be happy with those genetics.

As far as using a purebred bull to make a 1/2 blood calf in order to register the calf, you can register the offspring out of any percentage bull as long as that bull is registered with ASA. A lot of shows put 1/2 bloods in either a SimGenetic or AOB division...some small shows put everything with Simmental papers in the Simmental division. It wouldn't make a huge difference except for the fact that some shows do require an animal to be 1/2 blood in order to show in a SimGenetic division. But as far as just making the best animal and considering your goals, I wouldn't think a purebred in necessarily what you need.

And since your heifer is already part Angus, a SimAngus bull doesn't "mongrelize" your calf any more than a purebred Simmental. Most SimAngus bulls are built from many generations of registered purebred cattle on both sides of the pedigree...the composites are almost as predictable as the purebreds.

grandchamp58 said:

GONEWEST said:

grandchamp58 said:

GONEWEST said:

First point would be that the Simmi carcass EPD's are useless.
Second is why do you think that SimAngus cattle are thick and big topped? (as a generalization)
Third why do you want to use a half angus and not a purebred on an angus cow?

Click to expand...

First off, to answer your third question, my heifer is not purebred (obviously). She has a bit of maine and chi in her.
Secondly, the EPDs would have to be based off of SOMETHING
and lastly, where did you get the idea that i think simangus cattle are thick topped? i'm pretty sure i did not say that. and also any good bull should be thick topped, it has nothing to do with breed. I hope that answers some of your "questions"

Click to expand...

Uhmmmm....... this is where I got it.

I would like to stouten up my cow and i want something that will keep up the depth and large top.

If you think the Carcass EPD's must be based off of SOMETHING, then you are not familiar with the ASA, the man in charge of the EPD's there or their EPD model. Unless you call "something" fantasy's in this guys head.
Still wonder why you wouldn't want a purebred bull instead of a half blood to keep from further mongrelizing your cow. Just wanted to help. Breed her to a buffalo if you want.

Click to expand...

First off, crossing something isn't "mongrelizing" it. I am not familiar with the ASA because i do not want any purebred or registered simmentals. If you read my description, i am looking for something more clubby which is quite obvious from the requests. Just by breeding this heifer to even a purebred simmental it would be a 4 way cross calf. And i think you would have a rough time convincing people that a good simmental shouldnt have a thick top. And i'm sure EPDS arent based off of "fantasies." That's quite insulting to the people whom create the EPDs and its also pretty ridiculous that you would say something like that on a public forum.

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Well.........first if its going to be a 4 way cross calf, it's gonna be a mongrel. You say tomoto, I say tomato, What ever.............Perhaps you have a different definition.

Second if you have a cow that is already 80% Angus, you are not going to "stouten up my cow and i want something that will keep up the depth and large top." by adding more Angus. That's what YOU said you wanted to do. Except for the depth, none of that is gonna happen very often. And I never said a Simmental bull shouldn't be big topped. I never even said a half blood bull shouldn't be big topped. But when you ad Angus to more Angus, it's not going to improve.

Two things on the EPD's. You were worried about the REA EPD being a -.1 on that JF Foundation bull. The bull would contribute half of that. Do you know how small a half of 1/10 of 1 square inch of Rib Eye is? Why were you worried? It's so small it's useless information. Now that you said that you are sure that EPD's aren't based off fantasies. If you are so convinced, tell me what they are based off of. There's certainly very little if any actual data on Ribeye area for cattle sired by JF Foundation so what do you believe they base it on? Maybe there is some data on a parent or two a couple generations back. The only way to calculate EPD's on animals with no data is through some mathematical formula called an EPD model. They work well for some measurables, not so well for others. It's a guess. They GUESS progeny of him and the average cow would display a REA .05 of 1 square inch less than average. Why does it matter?

And as far as insulting the people that make the EPD's  (clapping) (lol) (clapping). Why would you say it was ridiculous to say that in a public forum? I've written the same thing to the guy in charge, the executive VP and all of the board members. The list of people who agree with me includes several board members and is long and much more distinguished than I. If you happened to read all the examples I cited in a response to Leanbeef, those were facts, they weren't made up. It's really becoming a problem.For instance several of the board members expressed to me the associations focus on API had already lead to problems.

Originally I asked those questions in order to understand more about what you wanted. It was not condescending, it was not confrontational. You wanted it to be and as is my nature, I am happy to oblige.  I've only been raising Simmental cattle for 36 years as an adult. Had them longer than that. You will forgive me if I don't know as much about Simmental cattle as you do. But in the off chance that you are interested there is a bull no one has mentioned that would be what you are looking for. That Chinook bull mentioned above may work as well. He is pictured below. His name is Trendsetter. He is undoubtedly the biggest topped stoutest 1/2 blood available. He won all three major shows and was actually a man among boys. But he is not a Sim Angus. Pictured below him is a double half blood Simmental daughter of his that I raised and sold to a family in AR, She has been out 7 times Grand or reserve 5 times and top 3 those 5 times. Now she is a little too clubby for me, but that's what you wanted.  This picture is at 9 mos and that's the best one I have showing her top. You might not think the competition is too much in AR until you consider that this calf is showing against heifers twice her age, she routinely defeats a $10,000 heifer and a $12,500 heifer and the champion heifer from the 2012 American Royal Junior Show is from AR along with other Simmentals owned by that family. Also in AR are the champion Mainetainer, Hereford and and Chi from this past summers junior nationals. So this calf is no slouch.

So again, forgive me for trying to help. Won't happen again.

I am going to stay out of the main part of the debate on this subject despite having some definite thoughts on it other than to point out that the Real Steel bull is at least a four way cross bull himself with simmental, maine, angus and chi in him plus whatever else is in Who Made Who.

With regard to your concern over Jf Foundation and saying his ribeye epd is -.1 I would like to know where you came up with this information.  When I look up JF Foundation on the ASA pedigree search nine bulls come up with the lowest ribeye epd being +0.46 and the bull I would think you are referring to, JF Foundation 8010U having a ribeye epd of +0.71 which ranks him in the top 15% of the breed with an accuracy of 0.48 which is fairly high for a carcass trait.  This bull has a percentile ranking for his ribeye epd that far exceeds his ranking for any other trait and on the basis of epds ribeye is the only thing the bull would be considered to really excel in.  Now whether you can truly put much faith in carcass epds is another subject and I personally tend towards Gonewest's side of the argument unless the accuracy is quite high from progeny testing.

vcsf said:

I am going to stay out of the main part of the debate on this subject despite having some definite thoughts on it other than to point out that the Real Steel bull is at least a four way cross bull himself with simmental, maine, angus and chi in him plus whatever else is in Who Made Who.

With regard to your concern over Jf Foundation and saying his ribeye epd is -.1 I would like to know where you came up with this information.  When I look up JF Foundation on the ASA pedigree search nine bulls come up with the lowest ribeye epd being +0.46 and the bull I would think you are referring to, JF Foundation 8010U having a ribeye epd of +0.71 which ranks him in the top 15% of the breed with an accuracy of 0.48 which is fairly high for a carcass trait.  This bull has a percentile ranking for his ribeye epd that far exceeds his ranking for any other trait and on the basis of epds ribeye is the only thing the bull would be considered to really excel in.  Now whether you can truly put much faith in carcass epds is another subject and I personally tend towards Gonewest's side of the argument unless the accuracy is quite high from progeny testing.

Click to expand...

It says it right in the cattle visions book and if you look up his epds online...thats 2 places....

GONEWEST said:

grandchamp58 said:

GONEWEST said:

grandchamp58 said:

GONEWEST said:

First point would be that the Simmi carcass EPD's are useless.
Second is why do you think that SimAngus cattle are thick and big topped? (as a generalization)
Third why do you want to use a half angus and not a purebred on an angus cow?

Click to expand...

First off, to answer your third question, my heifer is not purebred (obviously). She has a bit of maine and chi in her.
Secondly, the EPDs would have to be based off of SOMETHING
and lastly, where did you get the idea that i think simangus cattle are thick topped? i'm pretty sure i did not say that. and also any good bull should be thick topped, it has nothing to do with breed. I hope that answers some of your "questions"

Click to expand...

Uhmmmm....... this is where I got it.

I would like to stouten up my cow and i want something that will keep up the depth and large top.

If you think the Carcass EPD's must be based off of SOMETHING, then you are not familiar with the ASA, the man in charge of the EPD's there or their EPD model. Unless you call "something" fantasy's in this guys head.
Still wonder why you wouldn't want a purebred bull instead of a half blood to keep from further mongrelizing your cow. Just wanted to help. Breed her to a buffalo if you want.

Click to expand...

First off, crossing something isn't "mongrelizing" it. I am not familiar with the ASA because i do not want any purebred or registered simmentals. If you read my description, i am looking for something more clubby which is quite obvious from the requests. Just by breeding this heifer to even a purebred simmental it would be a 4 way cross calf. And i think you would have a rough time convincing people that a good simmental shouldnt have a thick top. And i'm sure EPDS arent based off of "fantasies." That's quite insulting to the people whom create the EPDs and its also pretty ridiculous that you would say something like that on a public forum.

Click to expand...

Well.........first if its going to be a 4 way cross calf, it's gonna be a mongrel. You say tomoto, I say tomato, What ever.............Perhaps you have a different definition.

Second if you have a cow that is already 80% Angus, you are not going to "stouten up my cow and i want something that will keep up the depth and large top." by adding more Angus. That's what YOU said you wanted to do. Except for the depth, none of that is gonna happen very often. And I never said a Simmental bull shouldn't be big topped. I never even said a half blood bull shouldn't be big topped. But when you ad Angus to more Angus, it's not going to improve.

Two things on the EPD's. You were worried about the REA EPD being a -.1 on that JF Foundation bull. The bull would contribute half of that. Do you know how small a half of 1/10 of 1 square inch of Rib Eye is? Why were you worried? It's so small it's useless information. Now that you said that you are sure that EPD's aren't based off fantasies. If you are so convinced, tell me what they are based off of. There's certainly very little if any actual data on Ribeye area for cattle sired by JF Foundation so what do you believe they base it on? Maybe there is some data on a parent or two a couple generations back. The only way to calculate EPD's on animals with no data is through some mathematical formula called an EPD model. They work well for some measurables, not so well for others. It's a guess. They GUESS progeny of him and the average cow would display a REA .05 of 1 square inch less than average. Why does it matter?

And as far as insulting the people that make the EPD's  (clapping) (lol) (clapping). Why would you say it was ridiculous to say that in a public forum? I've written the same thing to the guy in charge, the executive VP and all of the board members. The list of people who agree with me includes several board members and is long and much more distinguished than I. If you happened to read all the examples I cited in a response to Leanbeef, those were facts, they weren't made up. It's really becoming a problem.For instance several of the board members expressed to me the associations focus on API had already lead to problems.

Originally I asked those questions in order to understand more about what you wanted. It was not condescending, it was not confrontational. You wanted it to be and as is my nature, I am happy to oblige.  I've only been raising Simmental cattle for 36 years as an adult. Had them longer than that. You will forgive me if I don't know as much about Simmental cattle as you do. But in the off chance that you are interested there is a bull no one has mentioned that would be what you are looking for. That Chinook bull mentioned above may work as well. He is pictured below. His name is Trendsetter. He is undoubtedly the biggest topped stoutest 1/2 blood available. He won all three major shows and was actually a man among boys. But he is not a Sim Angus. Pictured below him is a double half blood Simmental daughter of his that I raised and sold to a family in AR, She has been out 7 times Grand or reserve 5 times and top 3 those 5 times. Now she is a little too clubby for me, but that's what you wanted.  This picture is at 9 mos and that's the best one I have showing her top. You might not think the competition is too much in AR until you consider that this calf is showing against heifers twice her age, she routinely defeats a $10,000 heifer and a $12,500 heifer and the champion heifer from the 2012 American Royal Junior Show is from AR along with other Simmentals owned by that family. Also in AR are the champion Mainetainer, Hereford and and Chi from this past summers junior nationals. So this calf is no slouch.

So again, forgive me for trying to help. Won't happen again.

Click to expand...

Forgive me when i say this, but i assume that if i state that i would like something clubby i would not be as worried about EPDs as others? is this not true? Congratulations on your heifer-she looks good. I also like that bull. However, next time you try to "help" maybe you could be just a bit less condescending about it? as stated by others on this thread maybe it would be best to leave the "registered" decisions up to me, the breeder, myself. I think mongrel is a nasty word for something that usually domninates the show ring. Technically a registered 50% simmental is still a mongrel if it includes 4 other breeds in it. Just because it has a "registration paper" makes it no better than a crossbred. I do not want a registered animal, especially if what you say about the people running the organization and the EPDS is true. So next time maybe consider these things before you do try to help.

leanbeef said:

-XBAR- said:

Not to ever agree w/ Gonewest, but crossing 'something' in the manner you've suggested is mongrelizing.  You're heifer is already comprised of Angus, Simmental, Maine, and chi- and at UNSTABALIZED percentages at that.  You now want to breed her to another bull whose genetics are unstable as well.  The resulting calf- by definition- would be a mongrel.  Anytime you breed a mongrel to a mongrel you have thrown all predictability out the window.  The fact that shes made up of 4 breeds does not make her a mongrel.  The fact that these %'s aren't stabalized does.

Click to expand...

What?... What the hell are "stabilized percentages"? LOL

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Stabalized or Fixed % are represented in hybrid composites such as Brangus, Gert, and Beefmaster.  While these breeds were once only crossbreds, they have been bred to other fixed percentage crosses. Brangus - 3/8 braham 5/8 angus.  Gert- 3/8 brahman 5/8 shorthorn.  Beefmaster- 1/2 brahman, 1/4 hereford 1/4 shorthorn.  Over time the percentages are STABALIZED whereas you have some predicitibility of the characteristics that will be transmitted.  With these mongrels in the discussion, there is no predictibility as far as which traits will be trasmitted.  One calf might take after the 14% this, the other calf might throwback to the 25% that. 

grandchamp58 said:

GONEWEST said:

grandchamp58 said:

GONEWEST said:

grandchamp58 said:

GONEWEST said:

First point would be that the Simmi carcass EPD's are useless.
Second is why do you think that SimAngus cattle are thick and big topped? (as a generalization)
Third why do you want to use a half angus and not a purebred on an angus cow?

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First off, to answer your third question, my heifer is not purebred (obviously). She has a bit of maine and chi in her.
Secondly, the EPDs would have to be based off of SOMETHING
and lastly, where did you get the idea that i think simangus cattle are thick topped? i'm pretty sure i did not say that. and also any good bull should be thick topped, it has nothing to do with breed. I hope that answers some of your "questions"

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Uhmmmm....... this is where I got it.

I would like to stouten up my cow and i want something that will keep up the depth and large top.

If you think the Carcass EPD's must be based off of SOMETHING, then you are not familiar with the ASA, the man in charge of the EPD's there or their EPD model. Unless you call "something" fantasy's in this guys head.
Still wonder why you wouldn't want a purebred bull instead of a half blood to keep from further mongrelizing your cow. Just wanted to help. Breed her to a buffalo if you want.

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First off, crossing something isn't "mongrelizing" it. I am not familiar with the ASA because i do not want any purebred or registered simmentals. If you read my description, i am looking for something more clubby which is quite obvious from the requests. Just by breeding this heifer to even a purebred simmental it would be a 4 way cross calf. And i think you would have a rough time convincing people that a good simmental shouldnt have a thick top. And i'm sure EPDS arent based off of "fantasies." That's quite insulting to the people whom create the EPDs and its also pretty ridiculous that you would say something like that on a public forum.

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Well.........first if its going to be a 4 way cross calf, it's gonna be a mongrel. You say tomoto, I say tomato, What ever.............Perhaps you have a different definition.

Second if you have a cow that is already 80% Angus, you are not going to "stouten up my cow and i want something that will keep up the depth and large top." by adding more Angus. That's what YOU said you wanted to do. Except for the depth, none of that is gonna happen very often. And I never said a Simmental bull shouldn't be big topped. I never even said a half blood bull shouldn't be big topped. But when you ad Angus to more Angus, it's not going to improve.

Two things on the EPD's. You were worried about the REA EPD being a -.1 on that JF Foundation bull. The bull would contribute half of that. Do you know how small a half of 1/10 of 1 square inch of Rib Eye is? Why were you worried? It's so small it's useless information. Now that you said that you are sure that EPD's aren't based off fantasies. If you are so convinced, tell me what they are based off of. There's certainly very little if any actual data on Ribeye area for cattle sired by JF Foundation so what do you believe they base it on? Maybe there is some data on a parent or two a couple generations back. The only way to calculate EPD's on animals with no data is through some mathematical formula called an EPD model. They work well for some measurables, not so well for others. It's a guess. They GUESS progeny of him and the average cow would display a REA .05 of 1 square inch less than average. Why does it matter?

And as far as insulting the people that make the EPD's  (clapping) (lol) (clapping). Why would you say it was ridiculous to say that in a public forum? I've written the same thing to the guy in charge, the executive VP and all of the board members. The list of people who agree with me includes several board members and is long and much more distinguished than I. If you happened to read all the examples I cited in a response to Leanbeef, those were facts, they weren't made up. It's really becoming a problem.For instance several of the board members expressed to me the associations focus on API had already lead to problems.

Originally I asked those questions in order to understand more about what you wanted. It was not condescending, it was not confrontational. You wanted it to be and as is my nature, I am happy to oblige.  I've only been raising Simmental cattle for 36 years as an adult. Had them longer than that. You will forgive me if I don't know as much about Simmental cattle as you do. But in the off chance that you are interested there is a bull no one has mentioned that would be what you are looking for. That Chinook bull mentioned above may work as well. He is pictured below. His name is Trendsetter. He is undoubtedly the biggest topped stoutest 1/2 blood available. He won all three major shows and was actually a man among boys. But he is not a Sim Angus. Pictured below him is a double half blood Simmental daughter of his that I raised and sold to a family in AR, She has been out 7 times Grand or reserve 5 times and top 3 those 5 times. Now she is a little too clubby for me, but that's what you wanted.  This picture is at 9 mos and that's the best one I have showing her top. You might not think the competition is too much in AR until you consider that this calf is showing against heifers twice her age, she routinely defeats a $10,000 heifer and a $12,500 heifer and the champion heifer from the 2012 American Royal Junior Show is from AR along with other Simmentals owned by that family. Also in AR are the champion Mainetainer, Hereford and and Chi from this past summers junior nationals. So this calf is no slouch.

So again, forgive me for trying to help. Won't happen again.

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Forgive me when i say this, but i assume that if i state that i would like something clubby i would not be as worried about EPDs as others? is this not true? Congratulations on your heifer-she looks good. I also like that bull. However, next time you try to "help" maybe you could be just a bit less condescending about it? as stated by others on this thread maybe it would be best to leave the "registered" decisions up to me, the breeder, myself. I think mongrel is a nasty word for something that usually domninates the show ring. Technically a registered 50% simmental is still a mongrel if it includes 4 other breeds in it. Just because it has a "registration paper" makes it no better than a crossbred. I do not want a registered animal, especially if what you say about the people running the organization and the EPDS is true. So next time maybe consider these things before you do try to help.

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There won't be a next time. You wing it on your own. After all, you've been showing for 2 whole years. I think you should pretty much know it all by now.

vcsf said:

I am going to stay out of the main part of the debate on this subject despite having some definite thoughts on it other than to point out that the Real Steel bull is at least a four way cross bull himself with simmental, maine, angus and chi in him plus whatever else is in Who Made Who.

With regard to your concern over Jf Foundation and saying his ribeye epd is -.1 I would like to know where you came up with this information.  When I look up JF Foundation on the ASA pedigree search nine bulls come up with the lowest ribeye epd being +0.46 and the bull I would think you are referring to, JF Foundation 8010U having a ribeye epd of +0.71 which ranks him in the top 15% of the breed with an accuracy of 0.48 which is fairly high for a carcass trait.  This bull has a percentile ranking for his ribeye epd that far exceeds his ranking for any other trait and on the basis of epds ribeye is the only thing the bull would be considered to really excel in.  Now whether you can truly put much faith in carcass epds is another subject and I personally tend towards Gonewest's side of the argument unless the accuracy is quite high from progeny testing.

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I think she is looking in an old Cattle Visions catalog. I don't know what on line she means. But the -.1 is from the EPD that compared only Simmi sires and the new "across breeds, I had to come up with something new to justify my employment" EPD's indicate a plus .71. I can't believe she didn't know this already. It's her second year showing and she already knows everything else.

GONEWEST said:

vcsf said:

I am going to stay out of the main part of the debate on this subject despite having some definite thoughts on it other than to point out that the Real Steel bull is at least a four way cross bull himself with simmental, maine, angus and chi in him plus whatever else is in Who Made Who.

With regard to your concern over Jf Foundation and saying his ribeye epd is -.1 I would like to know where you came up with this information.  When I look up JF Foundation on the ASA pedigree search nine bulls come up with the lowest ribeye epd being +0.46 and the bull I would think you are referring to, JF Foundation 8010U having a ribeye epd of +0.71 which ranks him in the top 15% of the breed with an accuracy of 0.48 which is fairly high for a carcass trait.  This bull has a percentile ranking for his ribeye epd that far exceeds his ranking for any other trait and on the basis of epds ribeye is the only thing the bull would be considered to really excel in.  Now whether you can truly put much faith in carcass epds is another subject and I personally tend towards Gonewest's side of the argument unless the accuracy is quite high from progeny testing.

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I think she is looking in an old Cattle Visions catalog. I don't know what on line she means. But the -.1 is from the EPD that compared only Simmi sires and the new "across breeds, I had to come up with something new to justify my employment" EPD's indicate a plus .71. I can't believe she didn't know this already. It's her second year showing and she already knows everything else.

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Cattle Visions currently shows the bull at +0.74 on the fall 2012 evaluation if he was in fact -0.1 under the old EPD model I feel that adds value to your aguement as to the limited value of the carcass EPD's as the bull would have moved from a fairly low percentile ranking to the top 15 percent of the breed.

I do believe that this thread and grandchamp58's previous thread on their blue roan heifer show that he/she does not really want to hear opinions that do not agree with their own thoughts.

vcsf said:

GONEWEST said:

vcsf said:

I am going to stay out of the main part of the debate on this subject despite having some definite thoughts on it other than to point out that the Real Steel bull is at least a four way cross bull himself with simmental, maine, angus and chi in him plus whatever else is in Who Made Who.

With regard to your concern over Jf Foundation and saying his ribeye epd is -.1 I would like to know where you came up with this information.  When I look up JF Foundation on the ASA pedigree search nine bulls come up with the lowest ribeye epd being +0.46 and the bull I would think you are referring to, JF Foundation 8010U having a ribeye epd of +0.71 which ranks him in the top 15% of the breed with an accuracy of 0.48 which is fairly high for a carcass trait.  This bull has a percentile ranking for his ribeye epd that far exceeds his ranking for any other trait and on the basis of epds ribeye is the only thing the bull would be considered to really excel in.  Now whether you can truly put much faith in carcass epds is another subject and I personally tend towards Gonewest's side of the argument unless the accuracy is quite high from progeny testing.

Click to expand...

I think she is looking in an old Cattle Visions catalog. I don't know what on line she means. But the -.1 is from the EPD that compared only Simmi sires and the new "across breeds, I had to come up with something new to justify my employment" EPD's indicate a plus .71. I can't believe she didn't know this already. It's her second year showing and she already knows everything else.

Click to expand...

Cattle Visions currently shows the bull at +0.74 on the fall 2012 evaluation if he was in fact -0.1 under the old EPD model I feel that adds value to your aguement as to the limited value of the carcass EPD's as the bull would have moved from a fairly low percentile ranking to the top 15 percent of the breed.

I do believe that this thread and grandchamp58's previous thread on their blue roan heifer show that he/she does not really want to hear opinions that do not agree with their own thoughts.

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Who are you to judge me when your opinion is completely off topic of what I have requested. Your response is so shallow that I am just appalled that you think you can assume anything ab out anyone. Please do not reply to anymore posts on my threads if you are going to be so condescending.

Gonewest- you have no right either to judge. I'm sure you "know everything" but you have no right to judge anyone. and your opinion may be valuable, but not to me. In this case I do not agree, but I respect your knowledge. Your assumptions make you look so immature that you really are the one who needs to be checked for your age.. It pretty obvious how rude you are normally and this may be why there are many people who disagree with you already. Please stop replying if you have nothing positive to add to the thread

grandchamp58 said:

vcsf said:

GONEWEST said:

vcsf said:

I am going to stay out of the main part of the debate on this subject despite having some definite thoughts on it other than to point out that the Real Steel bull is at least a four way cross bull himself with simmental, maine, angus and chi in him plus whatever else is in Who Made Who.

With regard to your concern over Jf Foundation and saying his ribeye epd is -.1 I would like to know where you came up with this information.  When I look up JF Foundation on the ASA pedigree search nine bulls come up with the lowest ribeye epd being +0.46 and the bull I would think you are referring to, JF Foundation 8010U having a ribeye epd of +0.71 which ranks him in the top 15% of the breed with an accuracy of 0.48 which is fairly high for a carcass trait.  This bull has a percentile ranking for his ribeye epd that far exceeds his ranking for any other trait and on the basis of epds ribeye is the only thing the bull would be considered to really excel in.  Now whether you can truly put much faith in carcass epds is another subject and I personally tend towards Gonewest's side of the argument unless the accuracy is quite high from progeny testing.

Click to expand...

I think she is looking in an old Cattle Visions catalog. I don't know what on line she means. But the -.1 is from the EPD that compared only Simmi sires and the new "across breeds, I had to come up with something new to justify my employment" EPD's indicate a plus .71. I can't believe she didn't know this already. It's her second year showing and she already knows everything else.

Click to expand...

Cattle Visions currently shows the bull at +0.74 on the fall 2012 evaluation if he was in fact -0.1 under the old EPD model I feel that adds value to your aguement as to the limited value of the carcass EPD's as the bull would have moved from a fairly low percentile ranking to the top 15 percent of the breed.

I do believe that this thread and grandchamp58's previous thread on their blue roan heifer show that he/she does not really want to hear opinions that do not agree with their own thoughts.

Click to expand...

Who are you to judge me when your opinion is completely off topic of what I have requested. Your response is so shallow that I am just appalled that you think you can assume anything ab out anyone. Please do not reply to anymore posts on my threads if you are going to be so condescending.

Gonewest- you have no right either to judge. I'm sure you "know everything" but you have no right to judge anyone. and your opinion may be valuable, but not to me. In this case I do not agree, but I respect your knowledge. Your assumptions make you look so immature that you really are the one who needs to be checked for your age.. It pretty obvious how rude you are normally and this may be why there are many people who disagree with you already. Please stop replying if you have nothing positive to add to the thread

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If trying to tell you that you are working off outdated or inaccurate information about a bull and drawing conclusions from your response to that and others is being rude and condescending I plead guilty and you can feel free to continue lowering my karma but my initial intention was merely an attempt to help you as you were not using accurate information.  Also when you brought up carcass EPDs in your initial post I would think it would be fair for anyone to assume you placed importance on EPDs.

Try Real Steel. I have seen his dam and she is one stout beast. Regardless of what the Hairetta cow family is made up of breed wise, they are one of the MOST consistent group of cattle I have ever seen. I have seen over 10 Hairietta daughters and you can tell one when you see one. Yes, clubbys have consistency, God forbid I say that on this forum. Some people say "well when you look at all the Hairietta AI sons pictures they don't look consistent, they don't look alike." That's because they are pictures, many done by different photographers. If you see them all in person you can see the true consistency. My vote is real steel. Proven genetics, and it's your cow, breed her how YOU want to. The Foundation bull has also had some very good heifer calves that I have seen. I wouldn't blame you if you tried him too! Good luck

Georgia- home of some real "peaches" and cattle experts lol !!! Rude!!!

Not sure EPDs hold any value anyways. I have seen more cattle with "great epds" being some of the most disfunctional cattle around.