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Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: beebe on April 27, 2021, 09:36:55 PM

Title: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: beebe on April 27, 2021, 09:36:55 PM


I suppose I am about to step on someone's toes here, but has anyone but me noticed the head on the heifer on the cover of the April edition of Shorthorn Country.  I guess I don't get out much but I have never seen a head on an animal that looks like an anteater with huge ears.  Without looking I will predict that the adrenal hair whorl will be at least 6 inches behind the shoulder blades.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: knabe on April 28, 2021, 03:43:09 AM
ttiwwp
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: mark tenenbaum on April 28, 2021, 06:16:11 AM
I have also noticed that almost everything in their sale weighed 80 plus or minus pounds with stacked pedigrees from the highest bw genetics in the breed O0
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: knabe on April 28, 2021, 06:42:11 AM
I have noticed shorthorns have short horns.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: oakview on April 28, 2021, 08:58:08 AM
That's femininity.  Long necks + long heads = show winners.  Right or wrong, that's the way it is.  I don't think I'd worry too much about that program fibbing on birth weights. 
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: beebe on April 28, 2021, 09:02:03 AM

I have noticed shorthorns have short horn have noticed that some don't have any at all.    I lean towards Bonsma type cattle.  I don't know where she came from and I don't mean to pick on other peoples cattle, I don't see heads like that.  What do the heads of her male siblings look like?
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: knabe on April 28, 2021, 09:39:43 AM
Itís obvious to pick on shorthorns for bw.

The ďcute headĒ is another deal.

To me, they are like the runts of the litter.

It would be interesting to know from a development perspective why that happens in all animals.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: Medium Rare on April 28, 2021, 11:44:41 AM
I wish I had their sale average.

I expected people to complain about her nose. The calf appears to be a fairly tightly line bred animal.

The Shorthorn Country appears to be nearly begging for high quality pictures that can be used on the cover of the magazine on a regular basis. I wish more commercial breeders would step up to the plate.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: beebe on April 28, 2021, 12:53:21 PM
That's femininity.  Long necks + long heads = show winners.  Right or wrong, that's the way it is.  I don't think I'd worry too much about that program fibbing on birth weights.

Feminine is not what came to mind when I saw that head.  Ribbons would explain a lot.  Ribbons have led cattle all over the place from good useful cattle 100 years ago to the belt buckle cattle to cattle that the Denver Champion were so big you could only see the top of the hat on six foot four Ric Hoyt as he stood behind him.

As far as cute heads and runts is concerned that could happen but my top end have heads that look like bulls and heifers look like a female.  Again I don't know whose cattle I picked on and I hope they have great success and long life. But I have never seen cattle with heads like that.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: mark tenenbaum on April 29, 2021, 07:25:35 AM
Itís obvious to pick on shorthorns for bw. TILL YOU HAVE A 130 POUND CALF OUT OF A GRANDDAUGHTER  OF ASSET SO CALLED CALVING EASE WHO IS NOW ONE OF THOSE BULLS WHO HERSELF WEIGHED 72 WHOS DAM WEIGHED 68 AND WAS CE BREEDING WHOS GRANDAM WAS 0 BW FROM 30 YEARS AGO AND I OWNED ALL 3 2 OF WHICH LIVED TO BE 14 PLUS YEARS OLD SORTA LIKE DS HUH? O0

The ďcute headĒ is another deal.

To me, they are like the runts of the litter.

It would be interesting to know from a development perspective why that happens in all animals.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: Duncraggan on May 02, 2021, 11:20:42 AM
I wish I had their sale average.

I expected people to complain about her nose. The calf appears to be a fairly tightly line bred animal.

The Shorthorn Country appears to be nearly begging for high quality pictures that can be used on the cover of the magazine on a regular basis. I wish more commercial breeders would step up to the plate.
I must concur that the picture is a poor representation of the Shorthorn breed.
Because of her black nose she would be deregistered from the purebred register, on inspection, in South Africa. Makes sense, but can be a blow!
Had a 100% pure, DNA verified for three generations, pedigree that threw a black patch on the shoulder, out of the blue. Beautiful heifer, probably in the top 10% of the drop, but had to get rid of her.
Have her on feed now and will eat her, hope she tastes good!
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: librarian on May 11, 2021, 08:23:38 AM
Itís obvious to pick on shorthorns for bw.

The ďcute headĒ is another deal.

To me, they are like the runts of the litter.

It would be interesting to know from a development perspective why that happens in all animals.

Neoteny, domestication syndrome. I read a lot about this when I was studying the lineback color pattern. It also applies to white heifer disease.
https://www.genetics.org/content/197/3/795 (https://www.genetics.org/content/197/3/795)
"In a nutshell, we suggest that initial selection for tameness leads to reduction of neural-crest-derived tissues of behavioral relevance, via multiple preexisting genetic variants that affect neural crest cell numbers at the final sites, and that this neural crest hypofunction produces, as an unselected byproduct, the morphological changes in pigmentation, jaws, teeth, ears, etc. exhibited in the DS. "
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: librarian on May 11, 2021, 08:36:09 AM
Beebe, according to Weston Price head shape (cranial narrowing) and consequent crowding of teeth and squeezing of nasal passages will follow a change in diet toward refined foods. I heard from an oldtimer Galloway breeder and feeder that feeding grain eventually results in long heads. Think about the loss of the wide grazing muzzle and this does seem possible. Also confinement prevents the animal from exercise, rendering a wide muzzle to facilitate oxygen intake and deep heart girth for lung capacity...barrel for rumin capacity etc etc as weak selection pressures. Standing quietly, devotion to feeding rather than breeding behavior, not getting excited and general dampening of the adrenal system are selection pressures for domestication.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: oakview on May 11, 2021, 09:23:28 AM
I will take tame cattle any day.  I believe there is a very high correlation between "tameness" and the environment the animal is placed in.  (namely, the people they're exposed to)
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: -XBAR- on May 11, 2021, 02:49:48 PM
Yeah thatís a terrible representation ridiculous they put a black nose on the cover
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: Dale on May 11, 2021, 04:52:00 PM
https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/cattle-viewpoints/tag/Shorthorn+Black+noses (https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/cattle-viewpoints/tag/Shorthorn+Black+noses)

Black noses do not sunburn.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: librarian on May 11, 2021, 05:52:43 PM
A good question is whether the wild type red allele exists in Shorthorn. In Galloway, for instance, an animal that expresses wild type red will have a muzzle so dark that it appears black. The same coloration is seen in Red Angus. On cows, there will also be very dark hair around the muzzle and on the head and chest of males, especially during breeding season. I think most of us have seen these dark muzzles. I think the dark mulberry color of old fashioned roans is also an expression of wild type red alleles. No proof that I know of, just an opinion.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: Dale on May 12, 2021, 04:47:40 PM
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/black-noses-on-shorthorn/15/ (http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/black-noses-on-shorthorn/15/)
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: knabe on May 13, 2021, 08:08:07 AM
Great article.

Itís obvious to pick on shorthorns for bw.

The ďcute headĒ is another deal.

To me, they are like the runts of the litter.

It would be interesting to know from a development perspective why that happens in all animals.

Neoteny, domestication syndrome. I read a lot about this when I was studying the lineback color pattern. It also applies to white heifer disease.
https://www.genetics.org/content/197/3/795 (https://www.genetics.org/content/197/3/795)
"In a nutshell, we suggest that initial selection for tameness leads to reduction of neural-crest-derived tissues of behavioral relevance, via multiple preexisting genetic variants that affect neural crest cell numbers at the final sites, and that this neural crest hypofunction produces, as an unselected byproduct, the morphological changes in pigmentation, jaws, teeth, ears, etc. exhibited in the DS. "
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 15, 2021, 03:56:34 PM
[url]http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/black-noses-on-shorthorn/15/[/url] ([url]http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/black-noses-on-shorthorn/15/[/url])
/// Hey Dale remember the Black Nose Margie of Aldens? She was one the better ones that came along Dont remember if she was an Improver but she was very close to the original Shannon Margie who may also have had Galloway-and certainly began a line of Shorthorns that are least as relevant today as 45 plus years ago  O0
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: Dale on May 16, 2021, 03:21:49 PM
I recall hearing of her and probably saw her at the NAILE?  An Improver according to DigitalBeef.

Another Margie from the same family was also flushed a lot--AF SHANNON MARGIE 924.   
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 16, 2021, 06:52:43 PM
924 was probably the most important well known one by far But i saw a Dividends impact x Black nose female in Texas that was a real sow around 1993 WAY AHEAD OF HER TIME O0
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: oakview on May 17, 2021, 09:21:48 AM
Torgerson's white with a black nose Pearl (sired by Clark) was long before that.  1975 I think.  She did a ton of winning.  We had an occasional black nosed Shorthorn back in the 60's.  Nothing new. 
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: justintime on May 21, 2021, 11:24:36 PM
Glamis Benefactor was imported from Scotland and he not only had a black nose, but he had black pigment all over is body. His hair was mainly red but a lot of his skin was black and some of his hair was as well. There was many black nosed animals in the Scottish cattle. One of the last bulls I remember being imported wss named Drynie Argosy. He was  red and white in color which was  not well accepted in the 1960s and he also had a pitch black nose. Louie Latimer from Remitall Cattle Co,, Olds Alberta said that he thought Argosy was one of the best bulls he had seen in several years despite his color and his black nose. He bought him anyways for the improvement he would bring.
Many of the Irish cattle that came over in the 70s and 80s also produced some black noses.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: knabe on May 22, 2021, 04:07:04 PM
what are shorthorn purists, for lack of a better word, so worried about with black?


cataloging it on a phenotype?  slippery slope of color types? 


they are otherwise shorthorns?


i mean, seriously, they should genotype the whole herd, and get rid of anything with holstein, maine's, who knows what else.


all breeds are like this. all of them.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: -XBAR- on May 22, 2021, 06:44:14 PM
what are shorthorn purists, for lack of a better word, so worried about with black?


cataloging it on a phenotype?  slippery slope of color types? 


they are otherwise shorthorns?


i mean, seriously, they should genotype the whole herd, and get rid of anything with holstein, maine's, who knows what else.


all breeds are like this. all of them.

I donít know of any other breed like this that has no phenotypical standards or defining breed characteristics.   Shorthorn is the only association of any red hided breed I know of that even allows black noses to be registered.   Disqualification in every Shorthorn registry in the word- not the ASA theyíll take your money.    I raised a hell of a black nose calf.  Even used him after Oakview saying he had a black nose bull that didnít throw any dark nosed calves.   My experience hasnt been so fortunate.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: knabe on May 23, 2021, 10:31:33 AM
what does a black nose imply?


what breed other than shorthorn is it supposed to come from?


chi, angus, other?


or is it a birth mark.


a few new colors in horses have been described lately.


maybe it's no big deal.


shorthorns have short horns.  maybe that's enough of a description?





Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 23, 2021, 11:19:04 AM
Probably the other way around-There is Shorthorn DNA in every Angus animal no matter how diluted and the black gene generally makes an x bred calf black or variations or red And if you HAVE A GOOD ONE ITS A GOOD ONE-commercial people dont give a rats a@$%^*()s about nose color-and neither do I if the burger or steak tastes good  O0
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: oakview on May 24, 2021, 10:07:34 AM
On the top ten list of selection factors for my herd, a black nose would be about 25th. 
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: knabe on May 24, 2021, 12:12:16 PM
black noses better with regard to sunburn.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: JPS on May 25, 2021, 03:23:48 PM
If you will go read "History of Shorthorn cattle" by James Sinclair, you will find that many of the original shorthorns that were registered in the herd book had black noses.  I don't know who created the myth that Shorthorns can't have a black nose.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: -XBAR- on May 26, 2021, 12:47:35 PM
Idk thats its a myth as much as it is a breed standard.   What constitutes a "breed" if not a uniform or at least similar set of characteristics?

Why does every Shorthorn association in the world -except for the ASA- bar entry to black nose animals?

Why does every red pigment breed out there -red angus, Charolais, hereford, etc- bar entry to black nose animals?

Would seem to me that amongst cattle associations, theres a pretty unanimous consensus regarding this topic?
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: shortybreeder on May 26, 2021, 03:07:13 PM
Idk thats its a myth as much as it is a breed standard.   What constitutes a "breed" if not a uniform or at least similar set of characteristics?

Why does every Shorthorn association in the world -except for the ASA- bar entry to black nose animals?

Why does every red pigment breed out there -red angus, Charolais, hereford, etc- bar entry to black nose animals?

Would seem to me that amongst cattle associations, theres a pretty unanimous consensus regarding this topic?
Shorthorn Beef association doesn't explicitly forbid it. They ban "colours and markings foreign to the breed" which leaves the black noses paired with roan/red/white hair coats up to interpretation.
Beef Shorthorn association Rules and Regs don't even address coat color, and neither does the Australian Shorthorn association
I couldn't find a website for the Performance Shorthorn Association to confirm what their registration requirements are
CSA does ban black noses (kind of, but based on above comments it doesn't seem to be enforced).
Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: JPS on May 26, 2021, 03:12:42 PM
You can look at coat color and say that it is a differentiation from other breeds.  I don't see any economic value to differentiating on a standard colored nose.  I have never heard a commercial cattleman sort the black noses out of a replacement heifer pen. I bet if we DNA tested all of the breeds, regardless of breed standards, we would find genetic diversity due to an unintended or intended breeding error.  DNA testing is the only way to prove an animal is "pure" in a legal sense.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: oakview on May 26, 2021, 04:20:13 PM
I didn't know Char. were red pigmented.  I guess you learn something every day.  Speaking of "pure", how many "pure" Charolais are there around?  Are there any "pure" Herefords out there, black nose or not?  Weren't there some "pure" Herefords not long ago that threw rat tails?  I would say those animals had more serious problems than black noses.  If you look, at the WHR photo in question, the heifer in the background is clearly not a purebred Shorthorn, even if she has a white nose.  They offer several plusses each year in their sale and there's a real possibility the black nosed heifer in question is also a plus, making this discussion even more useless than it already is. 
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: knabe on May 27, 2021, 08:54:18 AM
Itís already been proven with dna there are no pure cattle.

Thatís not the issue.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: -XBAR- on May 27, 2021, 09:29:32 AM
Has nothing to do with purity- it has to do with maintaining a breed standard.

Iím not sure where the purity focus comes from. I donít own any native shorthorns. 


Surely you didnít think Charolais had black pigment?   Black and red are the only two pigment colors.   Even if both Char parents were Fullbloods, if calf has black nose it can only be registered as a 15/16ths. 

If it is a plus on the cover it makes the conversation even more relevant is why in the world would a purebred registry have a crossbred as the poster child.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 27, 2021, 08:40:07 PM
So that other breeds and or commercial breeders will try Shorthorns based upon the improvements made by the complimentary (mutual?) heterosis gained by the union of two breeds-Back to the purist endless loop-WHO ELSE OCCASIONALLY MAY USE A  SHORTHORN? non purists Who is the association looking for? (NON PURISTS) And why are breed comparisons RE the positive results  of using a Shorthorn on something else important to the association? up to debate-but sorta leaves this thread-hide color and a few other things past tense.Did the doner of the "Angus" beef-Fillet you paid $75 for have a black nose? Who nose-who cares? O0
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: oakview on May 28, 2021, 09:05:23 AM
Mark:  Thanks for making my point.  Next time I'll try to be more clear.  Breed standards?  Black Maines, Black Limmys, black Gelbvieh, black Chis with virtually no Chi breeding, black Chars, red Chars, black Simmys.  And we're worried about a black nose.  More power to Shorthorn Country if they try to emphasize the use of Shorthorns on commercial herds, whether they tried to do that with the cover in questions or not. 
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: Hopster1000 on May 28, 2021, 01:18:26 PM

[/quote]
Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?
[/quote]

I was under the impression that polling occured naturally in Shorthorns, and have witnessed it at first hand as my father had a polled calf from horned parents. So could happen in heritage shorthorns or modern shorthorns.
Polling is a mutation that happens at a higher rate in Shorthorns than other breeds.
I had heard that polled shorthorns were then used to introduce the polled gene to many other breeds as the incidence of polling in some breeds is very low.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: shortybreeder on May 28, 2021, 02:36:31 PM

Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?
[/quote]

I was under the impression that polling occured naturally in Shorthorns, and have witnessed it at first hand as my father had a polled calf from horned parents. So could happen in heritage shorthorns or modern shorthorns.
Polling is a mutation that happens at a higher rate in Shorthorns than other breeds.
I had heard that polled shorthorns were then used to introduce the polled gene to many other breeds as the incidence of polling in some breeds is very low.
[/quote]
You could try convincing Mr. Spenser (majority owner of cattle in that registry) of that, but good luck lol their rules plainly state any animal that doesn't grow horns by 6 months of age (not including scurs) will have its registration revoked and a note made in the pedigrees behind it.
For the record, I do use polled cattle and I don't particularly agree with this stance, just pointing it out for discussion purposes.
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: mark tenenbaum on June 16, 2021, 07:51:39 PM
what are shorthorn purists, for lack of a better word, so worried about with black?


cataloging it on a phenotype?  slippery slope of color types? 


they are otherwise shorthorns?


i mean, seriously, they should genotype the whole herd, and get rid of anything with holstein, maine's, who knows what else.


all breeds are like this. all of them.

I donít know of any other breed like this that has no phenotypical standards or defining breed characteristics.   Shorthorn is the only association of any red hided breed I know of that even allows black noses to be registered.   Disqualification in every Shorthorn registry in the word- not the ASA theyíll take your money.    I raised a hell of a black nose calf.  Even used him after Oakview saying he had a black nose bull that didnít throw any dark nosed calves.   My experience hasnt been so fortunate." Hes probably the best one you have posted and if you have any commercial cattle-getting rid of him would be plain stupid" JMO-Id breed him to whatever-and let people see the  good ones-X bred or whatever-surely the commercial deal cant be that bad where you are O0 If it is-retain ownership and sell based on carcass quality O0
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: woodyc on June 22, 2021, 03:43:27 PM
On a slightly different note there was a canadain buyer in Scotland over to by a shorthorn bull for massey harris this was just after the war when it was the done thing to tour herds before the bull sale in February in perth and he was asked at a dinner just before the sale to give his thoughts on what he had seen he stood up and said 'You Scots keep banging on about heads but the only good heads I have seen is on a highland bull and a lassie in a hotel in Inverness'
Title: Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
Post by: Gargan on June 22, 2021, 06:03:49 PM
On a slightly different note there was a canadain buyer in Scotland over to by a shorthorn bull for massey harris this was just after the war when it was the done thing to tour herds before the bull sale in February in perth and he was asked at a dinner just before the sale to give his thoughts on what he had seen he stood up and said 'You Scots keep banging on about heads but the only good heads I have seen is on a highland bull and a lassie in a hotel in Inverness'
 (lol)