Thoughts on lack of heat

So I have asked many people this questions, and noone has really any solid answers for me.

My dad has a small group of Angus cows.  Nice enough cows, they do what he wants them for.  For years he has had me or the brother in law AI them, then he turns the bull out on them pretty normal stuff.

The thing that is puzzling is this group of cows absolutely does not show any signs of heat.  He has early fall calvers every year, and we usually sync the cows to breed back end of Novermber early December.  The cows do not show any natural heat in between their September calving, and their Nov/Dec breeding.  They also do not show heat after synchronization either.  (7-day CIDR protocol)  We breed on a timed AI after pulling the CIDR, and breed to about 65-70% range on timed AI.  The clean-up bull usually gets the rest 3 weeks later.  (they obviously stand for the clean-up bull).  So there is no real reproductive problems, just heat detection problems.

It isn't for a lack of checking either.  He constantly checks on them, and when synched they are checked many times a day, and through the night.  However nothing.

Nutrition shouldn't be an issue unless there is something we aren't thinking of.

The replacement heifers are a different story.  They show great heats on a sync program, however as soon as the move into the herd after calving for the first time the strong heats are gone.

I have no problems with my own cows/heifers and they are virtually on the same program 12 miles down the road.

Any thoughts?

for the most part, our cow herd is the same way.  It's almost impossible to detect good standing heats on some of them.  We do quite a bit of AI sync systems as well, both with just play Lut, and with CIDRs.

Are you checking heat at night?  I check around 10 pm.  Lots of those nocturnal heats will not show the next morning.

I work a 10 hr day at my job, its dark when I leave in the morning and dark when i get home in the morning.  makes it really hard to check heats.  One thing i do to help is spraypaint cows tailheads with inverted marking paint, usually orange or red.  Any cow that gets ridden will have paint gone or at least have the tailhead hairs messed up since the paint.  It works really good,  I can't tell excactly when the where ridden but I sure know it happened since the last time I checked them.  I have some cows that show really strong heats and others that hardly show at all.  I've just had to learn each cows ways.  Maybe this will help you a little.

This is just a thought.  How much light are these cows seeing a day?  We bred mares for years and the heat cycles for them revolve a lot around the daylight they recieved a day.  If we wanted to get them cycling well they were put under lights for at least 14-18 hours of light a day in November and Dec to get them ready to bred the first of Feb.  It tricks them into thinking spring is coming which is a bit more on natures cycle to breed rather than in Nov and Dec.  I would think that  a Nov or Dec Heat cycle would be hard to detect on any animal when their bodies are telling them to shut down for winter due to long nights and short days.  Might be something to think about.  We put the shed lights on a timer and they come on at 6-8 Am and 5 to 10 pm when we want the cows to start thinking "spring"

wrc said:

I work a 10 hr day at my job, its dark when I leave in the morning and dark when i get home in the morning.  makes it really hard to check heats.  One thing i do to help is spraypaint cows tailheads with inverted marking paint, usually orange or red.  Any cow that gets ridden will have paint gone or at least have the tailhead hairs messed up since the paint.  It works really good,  I can't tell excactly when the where ridden but I sure know it happened since the last time I checked them.  I have some cows that show really strong heats and others that hardly show at all.  I've just had to learn each cows ways.  Maybe this will help you a little.

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i check before i leave about 5:30 and 6:30 am, my wife confirms anything till 10 am and i start again around 6-10 pm.  look for head butting, increased activity out of norm at all.  record it on a calender and confirm intervals so you are ready when you know they may be coming in heat so you are so stressed every single day.  one cow i have almost never looks in heat, and will only stand about 2-3 times and then just for a short distance.  i use chalk and can chalk them all in the pasture.

I have dozen cows and have the same problem am going to try a gomer bull this spring

WhoaFlicka said:

I have dozen cows and have the same problem am going to try a gomer bull this spring

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synch them and catch most.

Using electronic heat detection I have recorded stand information on many cows that have just stood one time between 2 am and 4 am. Many of those cows took to the AI so I know it was a good heat. I am still not sure why this happens. Good Luck
BullsEye Heat Detection

I've had the best luck with a teaser bull with a chin ball marker on. Seems like with a bull with them it encourages them to come in and sometimes when you just have a few left to breed the ones I've already bred don't want to jump anything.

How does your chinball marker work..  I didn't really like ours, but then again, I only used it once.  It seemed that every cow was all colored up, over her whole body..  What does the breeding marks look like?  Stripe down the back?, spots on there behind the shoulder? 

We use markers on our rams all the time, but we paint the brisket.. which leaves the whole rump marked up..  I have liked this much better.. It seemed that by being on the head of the bull-- he marked something every time he tried doing something, like just pushing in to eat at the feeder, or fighting at the watering hole?  Maybe I just didn'tknow what to look for..

What's your thoughts (pop)

the truth said:

How does your chinball marker work..  I didn't really like ours, but then again, I only used it once.  It seemed that every cow was all colored up, over her whole body..  What does the breeding marks look like?  Stripe down the back?, spots on there behind the shoulder? 

We use markers on our rams all the time, but we paint the brisket.. which leaves the whole rump marked up..  I have liked this much better.. It seemed that by being on the head of the bull-- he marked something every time he tried doing something, like just pushing in to eat at the feeder, or fighting at the watering hole?  Maybe I just didn'tknow what to look for..

What's your thoughts (pop)

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What I was always told and have tried to follow is use a smaller framed bull. If you use a big framed bull like a Chi, Simmy, Char etc. they are taller than a lot of cows and can end up marking cows that aren't in. A smaller framed bull will have to ride them to mark them. Look for marks behind the cows shoulders on her back and marks from her back down her sides where they have slid off. Then look for other signs on your cow like swollen vulva, mucus etc. We always change colors of paint if we are breeding through more than one cycle after the first cycle.

That is what I figured..  Those were the main spots of marks on our cows...  I guess though, our problem was that the bull was bigger than the cows...  I realize that the ball point is geared to be used with a gomer, or teaser cow.. but I figured it would work the same on the regular herd bull.

thanks!

I don't mean to hyjack this but where do you do your heat watching, to you have a smaller grass pasture that is small enough to watch, or do you pen them up and feed them and then kick them back out? just wondering? Seems if you have them penned up they also don't show heats very well but you can time bred them and they are fine. If you pen them up and kick them out do you keep them in for 45 days after breeding and then kick them out or bred them and send them on their way? If you kick them out right away do you have very many abortions?