We are changing our herd away from Shorthorn

sue · Mar 25, 2015

Central Ky Breeder - I hope you consider selling directly to a grass fed or Niche beef producer before "bailing". McElhaney Stock Farms in PA have sold in local farmers markets for years at a premium purebred shorthorn beef. I googled and found a place called spotted pig ranch in Centerburg,OH that has sold pb shorthorn beef- they have a facebook page that showed Saskvalley Stampede sired steer calves of assorted colors. Shorthorn has for years hung our hat on docility trait that appeals to the newer generation of beef producers in this "niche" market . Best of luck, McElhaney's would sure give some great advice should you decide that route ? Best of luck

librarian · Mar 26, 2015

I studied the 2014 Grove sale catalog to try to figure out what Angus they were using in the Blacks. And IF it was just Angus since the bull in the picture has kind of hairy ears.
http://www.thegroveonline.com.au/cms-assets/documents/177446-889886.2014thegrovecombinedcatalogue.pdf
Lots 87-109 are black and I recognize TE Mania Berkley http://www.temaniaangus.com/semen-sires/te-mania-berkley-b1/ sire and dam out of 036. Beaufort of Wye stacked way back.
and Hoff Limited Edition http://www.universalsemensales.com/node/9827
I have seen them using these 90's type bulls before in contemporary Australian Angus genetics.

Page 6 of the catalog has FAQ.
A practical roadmap for commercial Shorthorn viability is right there.

Also in the Jungels 2015 sale there was an animal JSF Durham Black out of an Angus cow.
Interesting breeding. They bred a whole series of JSF Durham Blacks in 2007 and 2008, then a gap until 2014.

trevorgreycattleco · Jul 10, 2015

sue said:
Central Ky Breeder - I hope you consider selling directly to a grass fed or Niche beef producer before "bailing". McElhaney Stock Farms in PA have sold in local farmers markets for years at a premium purebred shorthorn beef. I googled and found a place called spotted pig ranch in Centerburg,OH that has sold pb shorthorn beef- they have a facebook page that showed Saskvalley Stampede sired steer calves of assorted colors. Shorthorn has for years hung our hat on docility trait that appeals to the newer generation of beef producers in this "niche" market . Best of luck, McElhaney's would sure give some great advice should you decide that route ? Best of luck

The Spotted Pig Ranch was my partner ranch for a year. I raised those cattle in a mob grazing deal on two farms. We ran 21 steers and bulls purchased from Bowman and Paint Valley. Looking back on it the cattle did ok. Weights were not where I would have liked to see. If shorthorns want to compete for a piece of the grass fed deal, we need more growth. Plain and simple. Carcass is there. Stampedes were high retail product and the Proud Leaders were better carcass quality overall. The customers have all been happy but there is room for improvement.

Lucky_P · Jul 10, 2015

Brock,
I think the growth is there - if you pick the right sires - and I think they're out there, just not in the numbers available in some other breeds.

Commercial outfit here, not a registered or purebred cow in the herd...
We've been using several solid red Shorthorn sires over AngusxSimAngus cows for the past 5-6 years. Resulting calves are far better than any Angus-sired calves had been out of those same cows - and comparable to, if not better, than Simmental-sired calves. Good growth, heavy muscle, heavy weaning weight.
We came over to Shorthorn, originally, for 'maternal' traits... and the heifers are looking good... but our experience has been that they're a pretty good 'terminal' cross... maybe they're 'materminal'.

Waukaru Orion 2047 and Waukaru Coppertop 464 sired steers have been at the top of our steer crops for the past two crops... best calves we've raised in 30 years, hands-down.
Used Waukaru Patent 8161 on everything except the Simmental cows (we're breeding them back toward purebred status) this spring... with WW115/YW165 I'm expecting a LOT of growth.
Yeah, I'll get some red calves... but I like 'em.

mark tenenbaum · Jul 10, 2015

LuckYP I'M taking a wild guess that you are in Canada-`1st-the cattle up there are maybe bred and made more for the commercial market all the way around which is a good thing-and those genertics surviving that kind of environment are starting to be recognized all over the world 2:The collective IQS of the operaters -buyers etc as far as hide color here-dont add up the IQ of a Lemming-which is basically what they are 3: As an aside-I find it very cool you are using the waukaru genetics (again-Canada doesnt have the AI selection of US genetics that is down here-probably a good thing)BECAUSE JMO-THOSE CATTLE CROSS BETTER WITH ANYTHING THEY ARE BRED TO THAN ANY BREED I HAVE SEEN. To me they show the linebred EnticerxMilestone-Goldwalk breeding-to look at them,i can see the dual,even though I am no one as far as being a shorthorn deal. But they work like the old shorthorns used to-moreso than anything else Shorthorn that Ive seen: in the second 27 years or so of fooling with Shorthorns.JMO-some of the top commercial cattle of any breed-just outdo themselves when you cross them-the calves just look much better than they do-at least those Ive seen O0

trevorgreycattleco · Jul 10, 2015

Lucky_P said:
Brock,
I think the growth is there - if you pick the right sires - and I think they're out there, just not in the numbers available in some other breeds.

Commercial outfit here, not a registered or purebred cow in the herd...
We've been using several solid red Shorthorn sires over AngusxSimAngus cows for the past 5-6 years. Resulting calves are far better than any Angus-sired calves had been out of those same cows - and comparable to, if not better, than Simmental-sired calves. Good growth, heavy muscle, heavy weaning weight.
We came over to Shorthorn, originally, for 'maternal' traits... and the heifers are looking good... but our experience has been that they're a pretty good 'terminal' cross... maybe they're 'materminal'.

Waukaru Orion 2047 and Waukaru Coppertop 464 sired steers have been at the top of our steer crops for the past two crops... best calves we've raised in 30 years, hands-down.
Used Waukaru Patent 8161 on everything except the Simmental cows (we're breeding them back toward purebred status) this spring... with WW115/YW165 I'm expecting a LOT of growth.
Yeah, I'll get some red calves... but I like 'em.

Do you feed grain? I'm just curious. I could have done a much better job managing the pastures and I think that had something to do with it. But they just seemed to lack a little gas to me.

librarian · Jul 11, 2015

E3, I respectfully disagree with the idea that if shorthorns want to compete in the grass fed market, we need more growth. What grass fed buyers are targeting for premiums ( in NY, anyway) is early maturity and carcass quality.
Adirondack Grazers Cooperative is paying premiums for hanging weights between 500-700 lbs., under 28 months.
The moderate sized Leader 21 (and similar) derived genetics are ideal for this. The short statured Shorthorns make a great cross to bring Angus back into the optimal grass finishing weight range.
http://adkgrazers.com/why-work-with-our-cooperative/

However, for the conventional market, I agree that more growth is essential....but isn't that how we lost marbling....?

trevorgreycattleco · Jul 11, 2015

I still sell it by the pound. A 950 pound steer vs a 1250 pound steer raised in the same amount of time on the same stuff will effect my bottom line. Grass fed doesn't need 24 months or whatever they say. To me it's still about how fast they get big enough and still hit the carcass target. Anything else leaves money on the table.

mark tenenbaum · Jul 11, 2015

Want em to grow use Byland Goldwalk-a Rodeo Son,K-Kim Dazzler-and or some of the earlier larger bulls-or larger framed Canadian deals. just make sure you dont breed them to hi BW genetics. O0

librarian · Jul 11, 2015

I'm just thinking about long haul scenarios in terms of promoting Shorthorn for grass fed.
One ( of many possible) scenarios is to promote a type of animal that is truly grassy. Usually this type is intermediate between the 950 lb and 1250 lb animals you described,..and if it's a shorthorn with those growth genetics the carcass quality will probably be better than either of the other animals at the same age.

trevorgreycattleco · Jul 11, 2015

I agree with you there. I don't think the bulls exist yet that will be needed moving forward. I think some folks are making good progress. I've given myself 5,10 and 20 year goals to shoot for as far as breeding progress.

Mark, I've got Mel Bar 347 in the tank. Byland mission too. Those are the growthier bulls I have so far but I've been shopping. I'm going to sell most of my black angus semen this winter and flip it for shorthorn bulls. I've also got two really good bull calves to use as a herd sire next year possibly. They are a good start to building my own type. I also bought some commercial cows from a good friend. Old retired Vo AG teacher. He introduced me to shorthorns. These cows will be bred shorthorn and the calves will be grass finished.

Building blocks are here. We just need to know how to put them together. using genetic defect carrier bulls needs to stop too.

Lucky_P · Jul 11, 2015

Brock
We're Located in southern west-central KY, just north or the TN line, about an hour NW of Nashville.
Sort of an MIG operation, grazing mostly novel endophyte fescue/orchardgrass/clover, moving to fresh paddock every 1-2 days, from March through October. Cows are limit-fed grass hay and DDG from Nov-Feb.
So...spring-born calves are pretty much just grass and mama's milk from birth to sale post-weaning; fall calves are dropped on pasture a couple of months before winter feeding commences, but do eat hay and DDG along with their dams through the winter, then spend 2-3 months on pasture before sale.

Last spring(2014)- Orion-sired steers weaned @ ~697#, Coppertops @ ~654#, IIRC. Don't have the weights on the Fall 2014 group at hand, but the Shorthorn-sired steers were far better than any Angus sired calves(by the walking Angus cleanup bull), and most of the Simmental-sired steers - though all the Simmies were by extreme calving ease sires out of first calf heifers, so I didn't expect them to be as good.

Small herd, only about 70 females, so I'm limited as to how many sires I can use... there are quite a few Shorthorn (and Simmental) sires I'd love to trial... just don't have enough cows or time to use 'em all.
Still think Shorthorn genetics are an vastly underappreciated resource for commercial cattlemen, but the market here is so obsessed with black hair that I don't know when or if the breed will make many major inroads - but I recommend SH bulls every chance I get.

jnm · Jul 11, 2015

Had interesting conversation with local farmer a week ago. He has been operating a "grass fed" beef operation for several years. He is very high on shorthorn cattle for their ability to finish on grass. Where he surprised me was when he spoke of crossing the shorthorns with a Jersey. He said this provided the extra marbling so the consumer was getting the "grain fed" taste they were use to even though grass fed. I asked about size and he said he recently slaughtered four and had average carcus weigh of a little over 600 lbs.

trevorgreycattleco · Jul 11, 2015

Lucky_P said:
Brock
We're Located in southern west-central KY, just north or the TN line, about an hour NW of Nashville.
Sort of an MIG operation, grazing mostly novel endophyte fescue/orchardgrass/clover, moving to fresh paddock every 1-2 days, from March through October. Cows are limit-fed grass hay and DDG from Nov-Feb.
So...spring-born calves are pretty much just grass and mama's milk from birth to sale post-weaning; fall calves are dropped on pasture a couple of months before winter feeding commences, but do eat hay and DDG along with their dams through the winter, then spend 2-3 months on pasture before sale.

Last spring(2014)- Orion-sired steers weaned @ ~697#, Coppertops @ ~654#, IIRC. Don't have the weights on the Fall 2014 group at hand, but the Shorthorn-sired steers were far better than any Angus sired calves(by the walking Angus cleanup bull), and most of the Simmental-sired steers - though all the Simmies were by extreme calving ease sires out of first calf heifers, so I didn't expect them to be as good.

Small herd, only about 70 females, so I'm limited as to how many sires I can use... there are quite a few Shorthorn (and Simmental) sires I'd love to trial... just don't have enough cows or time to use 'em all.
Still think Shorthorn genetics are an vastly underappreciated resource for commercial cattlemen, but the market here is so obsessed with black hair that I don't know when or if the breed will make many major inroads - but I recommend SH bulls every chance I get.

That is all very impressive. You're ahead of the game Id say. The whole mob grazing deal takes a little while to get it down. My cows are going in traps now that have 45 days or more rest. The diversity that comes up in the pasture amazes me and it's really helping the cattle grow.

Lucky_P · Jul 14, 2015

Did a progeny-test breeding trial on commercial cattle for the Jordans at Waukaru for the Spring 2014 calf crop, comparing W.Orion 2047 to W.Coppertop 464(whom we'd been using for several years); small group of mostly 3/4AN-1/4SM cows... ended up with 4 steers by each sire, which went into a feeding trial. Just got some preliminary results back from Toby regarding the feed-out, yesterday:

"The Orion 2047 steers had an average ADG ratio of 111, HCW of 857 YG 2 Low Choice. I think this would be the highest HCW sire average of the 115 head test. The most profitable and highest ranking steer was one from you, an Orion son tag 15. The Coppertop 464 steers were very comparable. ADG ratio of 110, YG 2 Se+. "

Was pleased to see this result...looking forward to getting individual carcass data on these calves. Dam of the #15 steer has produced the top weaning calf in our herd for the past 3 years...but I've never known how the calves performed after they left here...

trevorgreycattleco · Jul 14, 2015

Wow! Sounds like you need to keep a bull out of that cow. Those are encouraging numbers. Thanks for sharing

Lucky_P · Jul 14, 2015

She's got an Angus-sired calf this time out; didn't stick to her AI service.
Did keep one Orion bull calf intact, this spring, out of a paternal half-sib to her that's been her close second and out of a more preferred cow family, for potential use as a cleanup sire in future breeding seasons. He's been a hoss since birth; still looking good at 4.5 months, but time will tell...

Duncraggan · Jul 14, 2015

Lucky_P said:
She's got an Angus-sired calf this time out; didn't stick to her AI service.
Did keep one Orion bull calf intact, this spring, out of a half-sib to her that's been her close second and out of a more preferred cow family, for potential use as a cleanup sire in future breeding seasons. He's been a hoss since birth; still looking good at 4.5 months, but time will tell...

You need to speak to -XBAR- about the proven advantages of using crossbred bulls!

Lucky_P · Jul 14, 2015

LOL, duncraggin,
He's just a Shorthorn Plus...he is red, out of a black 86%AN female...don't guess he'd really qualify as a Durham Red.

I've had plenty of experience with crossbred bulls over crossbred cows...uniformity may not be there... but when I'm already using several different Simmental, Shorthorn, and Angus AI sires over these crossbred cows trying to match the bull to the cow's strengths... uniformity is not our strong suit... but I will say that the Shorthorn-sired calves have come closer to 'uniformity' than what we've achieved with other breeds - regardless of whether they've been sired by Waukaru bulls, 034, or Captain Obvious.

Have used, back in the early '80s, a halfblood Simbrah over AngusXHereford cows, and got some of the best calves we'd ever raised - until I got on the Shorthorn train.
Currently have two little SimAngus critters playing backup to the 10y.o. Angus herdsire, who's taking a ride to town in a week or two. They're just stopgap players, filling a void 'til I can replace them with what I'm breeding toward... same as the red bull calf...though I expect him to sire better offspring than them. Photo of him at about 3 months, feel free to knock him down...

Aussie · Jul 14, 2015

E3 Durhams said:
I still sell it by the pound. A 950 pound steer vs a 1250 pound steer raised in the same amount of time on the same stuff will effect my bottom line. Grass fed doesn't need 24 months or whatever they say. To me it's still about how fast they get big enough and still hit the carcass target. Anything else leaves money on the table.

Bingo. This is the way we operate our grass fed operations over here. All the BS that some go on with about early maturing finishing at low weights makes no one any money. Grass fattening is just feedlotting in another form the same cattle selection principles apply. Sorry back to Shorthorns

We are changing our herd away from Shorthorn

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