What's the scoop on the new trouble in Angus......

Rumor is that there is another genetic defect, is this so,somewhat like TH......

Yeah kinda i dont want to tell you the wrong thing but to me its just like PHA and TH, a dead weird looking calf. Its in the line of Precision 1680 is what i heard. if you go to the Angus Ass'n website you can read more on it.

Are you referring to CCS (Curly Calf Syndrome) or now known as AMS, which stands for the medical name. Confirmed in 1680 bloodlines and maybe another or two.
OR
are you referring to the biggest secret that isn't long nosed dwarf syndrome? Which the angus assoc will deny even exist, but everyone, including tons of research from our friends overseas in Australia, knows exsist?  Call the assoc and ask them......they can come up with all sorts of explainations, none of which are genetic!!! It is absolutely halarious!!!!
Honestly, call them.....they gotta have a SNL writter giving them that stuff.

It's going to take alot more time to figure it out.  Don't trust the list of clean bulls.  My vet told me they don't even know what they are testing for.  Part of the people think it is a genetic defect that could lead to a birth defect occuring.  Nice to see the scare tactics out and about.  Hurry everyone cut the heads off you angus cows.

i have herd that if you have a 1680 cow keep her. after all they are some awsoem cows. just dont stack the pegerees just like TH its simple stuff. yeah if you wanna get paid 150,000 a year to looks at genitics go head but for the cow prouduceer who cant be put on hold by not stacking 1680 many ppl said they are dion just fine. it is  a genitic defect that austrillia has had. and for that nose crap idk what it even is cuz i have never herd of it. We did have a guy back outta a bull cuz o trojan nose on a REd angus and the next month a judge was tlakng how that looks nice on red angus so perosnaly a nose is a nose as long as the animal can breath it makes no difference.

Steer Boy are you part of the great Angus cover up?  Everyone knows that all angus ranches are filled with dwarf cattle with noses like an elephants trunk.  And anyone who has any 1680 blood has pastures full of dead calves.  (lol)

Rustynail said:

Steer Boy are you part of the great Angus cover up?  Everyone knows that all angus ranches are filled with dwarf cattle with noses like an elephants trunk.  And anyone who has any 1680 blood has pastures full of dead calves.   (lol)

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Pretty much what I heard. lol.    Angus= Fail... Shorthorns is where it's at!  Just Kidding....I like my share of Angus too,but now that Shorties and Angus are on a fair playing field, genetic defect- wise....

here is a good thread on the topic.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=5952.0

While I agree that many of these defects can be so-called managed, in a breeding program, I can't help but think of how opinions have changed in a few short decades. If you were around say, 30 years ago, you will remember than any defect that surfaced in any breed was eliminated from the population as quickly as possible... no matter what lines were involved or how much the cattle were valued at. Genetic defects are not a new issue. What is new is the way breed associations deal with them.

I can remember major defects in Charolais, Herefords, Limousin, and other breeds, where the breed associations pulled the registration papers of any carriers and they were eliminated from the breed immediately. I remember many high priced Charolais cattle and some very popular imported bulls from France that were taken out of the breed in one vote at the Charolais association board table. These were very unpopular decisions at the time, but the defect problem was solved in short order. The breed association's were hard nosed in dealing with the defect elimination as quickly as possible.

I am not certain which method of dealing with these defect issues is the right one.What I do find interesting is the difference between how they are dealt with. Did the breed associations of the past have more vision and concern on the future of the breed and more concern for the commercial industry?  Or were they over reactive and make some bad decisions that cost some breeders as well as the breed associations, lots of dollars?

There are probably lots of opinions on this, and I think it is possible to argue on both sides of the issue. I just find it interesting how times have changed.... and I sometimes wonder how much the almighty $$$$ is the biggest concern, when it comes time to make a decision on how to deal with these genetic defect issues. I may be wrong...and maybe times have changed.

justintime said:

While I agree that many of these defects can be so-called managed, in a breeding program, I can't help but think of how opinions have changed in a few short decades. If you were around say, 30 years ago, you will remember than any defect that surfaced in any breed was eliminated from the population as quickly as possible... no matter what lines were involved or how much the cattle were valued at. Genetic defects are not a new issue. What is new is the way breed associations deal with them.

I can remember major defects in Charolais, Herefords, Limousin, and other breeds, where the breed associations pulled the registration papers of any carriers and they were eliminated from the breed immediately. I remember many high priced Charolais cattle and some very popular imported bulls from France that were taken out of the breed in one vote at the Charolais association board table. These were very unpopular decisions at the time, but the defect problem was solved in short order. The breed association's were hard nosed in dealing with the defect elimination as quickly as possible.

I am not certain which method of dealing with these defect issues is the right one.What I do find interesting is the difference between how they are dealt with. Did the breed associations of the past have more vision and concern on the future of the breed and more concern for the commercial industry?  Or were they over reactive and make some bad decisions that cost some breeders as well as the breed associations, lots of dollars?

There are probably lots of opinions on this, and I think it is possible to argue on both sides of the issue. I just find it interesting how times have changed.... and I sometimes wonder how much the almighty $$$$ is the biggest concern, when it comes time to make a decision on how to deal with these genetic defect issues. I may be wrong...and maybe times have changed.

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I do believe the angus association is taking measures to eliminate this defect.  There is a time limit on when you can use the genetics that have the CCS gene.  After that time they are unregisterable if they are a carrier.  If you do have a registered carrier and they have a calf they must be tested.  If they are positive this next go around you can't register them.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

steerboy1 quote: "and for that nose crap idk what it even is cuz i have never herd of it."
                            " trojan nose "

Well, steerboy, not sure what you meant by "and for th nose crap, i don't know, cuz i have never heard of it", but I am sure YOU do not know of EVERY genetic defect. So that has little relevance in my opinion.  Just because YOU don't know about it doesn't make it "not happening"....oh wait, maybe that is what the maines and shorties tried to do with TH and PHA. How did that work out for them??
Your comment about "roman nose" just shows your lack of understanding of "long nose dwarf syn" as it has nothing to do with a simple cosmetic appearance.  It is not a "roman nose", or "long nose" or "short nose". It is a defect that DOES effect not only breathing but SURIVIVABILITY of the calf. OK, bluntly, it kills the calf 90% of the time.
And a genetic defect that cause a birth defect is in fact a "genetic defect"........


justintime: amazing how different the assoc handle things now isn't it. A lot like the "America's Cup" in sailboat racing.....it used to be made up of honest, intergrity driven guys who wanted the stiffest competition to beat. Now it is nothing but a rich mans game and how to weasel, spy and sabatoge the opponet, and picking the weakest team to compete against so you can win.
The breed assoc are the same.....looking out for themselves and not looking out for the good of the company.  If you have noticed, the elimination of defects in the Chars, limis, Herfs and previously the angus, didn't kill the breed. In fact, only made the genetic base better. 

Freddy said:

Rumor is that there is another genetic defect, is this so,somewhat like TH......

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is it possible to be more specific???

It's ok steerboy hard to understand something that's a bunch of bogus crap.

Gee whiz! EVERY breed has some cruddy ones and some dang good ones. Same goes for color. Let's not start this breed dissing stuff. Let's not overgeneralize too much. Angus aren't bad cause of CCS. Neither are Maines just cause some carry PHA. Neither are Shorthorns cause some carry TH. Neither are Herefords cause some have eye and udder problems. These are problems cause the earth'll never be perfect. They can also be avoided by usin' the right genetics. JMO and JMS. (JMS: Just my Soapbox.)

does anyone have recent #'s of effected number of calves to date that have been reported ? what was there an increase in 08 vs 07 ? is there any particular demographic similarities ? i seem to asking the same questions now as i did when i first came here on pha advice...but what i see now is the angus association has been onboard with members/breeders/vets/labs/ ect ..5 days after i read about it here...i sensed a pretty decent attempt to trace it,advise folks, to the best of there knowledge at the time,  of whats  is going on......and all affected seem to be a  part of the test criteria as well...i dont how long the maine/pha debate was going on  before i started listening in here on sp.....but i know how long it took for the maine association to address it after i crept in...the sooner a test is developed the better...in any breed...then get on with it....if you thinks its advantages for your market, you can still buy and use it....its not like yoiu got to go to amsterdam and buy it out of dusty tent and smuggle it back in the county...its an associations job to control alot of things, and id say a genetic defect is something it would want to ( and whose responsibility  it is)  address it as a priority....what i see is the angus association doing ...is just  that...all i can do is wait and see where to mail my samples.. to. ..jbarl

I know its inconvienent but I think its good if breeders bought a genetic book and understood how the homozygous and hererozygous deal works. I once had a breeder try and sell me a bull onetime. I asked him if the bull was polled.....he said no, BUT their is polled blood in his pedigree.OMG either he thought I was a idiot or he was a idiot. I am amazed also how many people don't understand how the Red Angus evolved(color wise).

AJ - It amazes me as well. Countless times I have been asked if my RA were related to the "real" angus or if it was just a name. Dominant and recessive genes are not that complicated to understand even for a simple country boy like me. RW

I am sorry if I come off as a jerk, but this is rediculous.  All cattle have issues.  All breeds have issues.  I am not saying that the angus breed is perfect, but to say the AAA is in charge of some great cover up is stupid.  I am not going to throw around accusations base on some research done in Australia.  I also believe that the AAA is trying to do what they can about CCS. I just don't think they know exactly what it is.  And my vet says he would not trust any test saying an animal is defect free yet.

Well, I could be my old self and say "apology accepted rustynail", but I am working on "turning over a new leaf". So I won't.

I believe the orginal question was asking what the scoop was on the "new trouble".....CCS has been around for years, so I do not consider it new. It was recognized by the aaa several months ago and the gene was found and is being verified as we speak. So again, I do not consider this "new".
On the other hand, LNDS, is relatively new in the circle of talk. So I would consider new. I was only ask for which the inquiry was about.

Conspriacy in the aaa. Naw. Just some folks looking out for their interest.  I have kept in close contact with the ol aaa on this and other defects and I was told exactly one week before the announcement, that CCS was NOT a genetic defect and they do not feel it will influence the breed at all. Huh, I know 7 days is a long time, but come on.....
And I am assuming that by your reference that you said " throw around some accusations based on some research done in Australia" that you do not believe the Aussies are compentent in doing research? Are you really that naive to think the the US is that far superior to everyone that we are the only ones that are capable of doing such research? The Aussies are much farther down the road than we are when it comes to tracking and tracing genetic defects. I for one, appreciate their efforts.

As far as educating the cattleman on genetics good luck!!  I had a red angus breeder tell me that the reds came before the blacks. Also am amazed at how folks do not put together the EPD's of an animal vs. actual performance.  How can a bull wean at "1000 pounds" and yet weigh only 1500 in January?  How can a bull be zero on milk yet have the "best milking daughters in the breed?"  And I always chuckle when a catalog will say something like "EPD's do not dictate the quality of the bull/heifer/cow. This bull/heifer/cow is super."  Yet in another lot they will push those same EPD"s as being the "end all story" when they are superb......sorry can't have it both way. Especially in genetics!! 
I do think many cattleman are becoming more educated in health issues, genetics, EPD's etc. But, I still feel that it is crucial that the seller inform the buyer of all potential defects and educate the buyer of things they may have no idea exsist.

I really have a hard time explaining myself.  I was apologizing to people who read this thread and to the person who started it if I offended them by being sarcastic.  I am not in any way apologizing for what I said.

I am pretty sure that everyone knew excactly what the original poster was asking about.  Most would probably agree that a "gene defect" that could change alot in the angus world, which came out a few weeks ago, is still pretty new.  Then again, I am not in direct contact with a mole at AAA who is giving out scoops.  My vet is in contact with several people who are doing research for them who are not convinced that it is a gene defect. It is going to take time to figure out what it is and how to test for it.

I am also sure that the Aussie's are right on top of many issues affecting their country on the other side of the planet.  However I probably won't loose alot of sleep worrying about LNDS or how to Kangaroo proof my fences.  I am a responsible breeder who uses proven blood lines and does not line breed.  I am also not making the AAA out to be some "BIG BROTHER" who is pulling some huge cover up.  I would think you would appreciate some of measures that they are taking, like not being able to register carries.  They  are basically trying to eliminate the problem , without completely destroying some of the top breeders. 

We do agree on your view points towards EPDs.  Way to much faith is invested in them.  This is when breeders need to remember the basics. 

There is also nothing wrong with breeders being educated.  As long as all of the facts are in.  Alot of the scare tactics being used with CCS is being put out by other breeds.  I know alot of people who are receiving emails from the Simmy Association on the subject.  Everyone one just needs to settle down until the find out excactly what is going on.