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Offline Freddy

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Some of us older Charolais members were talking about an old French bull called FR 31 AVIGNON that was a  very big influence in the Charolais  in the late seventy's I think ...

Offline BogartCattleCo

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 02:15:07 PM »
My neighbour had a bull sired by him in the mid-90's, we used him on a couple cows that didn't catch AI. The only thing I really remember about the calves is that we pulled about 6 of my neighbours and both of the ones we had. They were 120+lbs calves. One of the neighbours ended up c-section. Not totally sure whether it was this bulls influence or the mother's side, but whatever it was it didn't help the death rate

Offline olsun

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 04:45:51 PM »
when the first charolais were imported directly from france. they were nearly all hard calvers, We never used the bull you mention. but we did use a bull that I really liked. called Ali Baba Bramard. and he was a very tough calver, I still have some in the tank. but am scared to use it,

Offline Mark H

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 06:38:57 PM »
I remember  Avigon from when i was a kid along with Ali Baba Bramard, Belphagor (Bingo), Aiglon, Elcair, Caid etc.  I think that he was imported directly into the United States from the Bahamas instead of Grosse Ille, PQ.  He was considered a very moderate birth weight bull by the standards of the day.  He was as easy calving as TEE Anchor aiglon or Alger bbetter performance.  Many breeders like the bullscalves for their feet and legs.  They are good rancher type cattle.  Avigon was used by WAT-CHA  farms, LOCH-LO and Pattons in Canada. Patton's had calves out of him as late as 2009; so some Avigon offspring may still roam the earth.
Ali Baba Bramard has negative birth weight EPDs with decent accuracies in the AICA summary: (-1.3 acc ,73) wiht a -14 yearling weight.  The fact he may have been a hard calver back then may have reflected on the cows he was bred to since the average cow size has increased so much.  My favorite Ail Bramard bull was the Edgar Phillpott half french bull SIR SANS F25, a good moderate easy calving bull for his day ( very similar to the other Edgar Phillpott bullwith ABS Crown A30). 
Man have we come along was from those days...

Offline Freddy

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 08:55:30 PM »
Did they have any success in the show ring in those day's ....Some say a lot of the French bulls had structure problems ,weak pasterns ...

Offline Mark H

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 10:45:21 PM »
Bsck when Full French came in they dominated the shows given that they had better growth and muscle than any domestic Charolais around. Hamm Mogo is a good example of the type of animal winning at that time-he even has the same bloodlines from then.  The biggest problem with these cattle wasn't structure.  It was breeding ability.  Full French bulls frequently had small testicles (Hamm Mogo has this problem) and the heifers would not breed until 2 years old like in France.  Culling solved this problem.  The french cattle were the tamest Charolais cattle around at the time; the domestics were very wild and many animals were sent to town because of this.
 A later French bull that dominated the show ring until Poker King Jr. showed up was Hannibal.  Once the pencil gut fad was over big muscled bulls like SVC Futurist dominated the show ring.
For entertaining stories on the early French Imports Jim Chatenay gives some good stories about their cattle buying in France: http://charolaisbanner.com/newcbsite/charolais-reminiscenses/  Note the number of shorthorn breeders that became Charolais breeders in the 1960's.

Offline Charo

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 11:10:28 PM »
A lot of Charolais cows here have Hannibal and Amour de Paris in their pedigree. Our father bought only bulls, AI bulls became a practice at the end of the eighties.

Offline Mark H

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 11:25:51 PM »
I remember Amour de Paris very well. Francie Borgal raised a world record yearling weight  full french bull calf at the time 1740 LB out of him named Excel.
The most influental Full French bull via son Cougerhill Hank is Cyrano 32D.  The best modern Full Fench bull is Impair is you can get the semen at any price.

Offline BogartCattleCo

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 09:22:26 AM »
I had an Impair calf about 2 weeks ago off of a commercial Char cow. Nice calf, a little tall for the show ring maybe but will make a nice stocker if nothing else

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 11:46:54 AM »

Ali Baba Bramard has negative birth weight EPDs with decent accuracies in the AICA summary: (-1.3 acc ,73) wiht a -14 yearling weight.  The fact he may have been a hard calver back then may have reflected on the cows he was bred to since the average cow size has increased so much

There's a lot of truth to what you're sayin here,  Mark.  My grandpa imported a few Fullbloods in the late 60s and they (he and his brothers) had been bringing Fullbloods in through Mexico years before that.  He tells me he had his share of calving problems 130lb calves but, like you said, in an attempt to upgrade as many cattle as possible, people were breeding these fullblood bulls to 900lb Hereford cows.  Big birthweights were a problem but little cows sure didn't help the situation any. 

Offline Freddy

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 01:25:30 PM »
The breeding problrms in he  PB Charolais back in 60-70's ,and proably the eighty's came from MOSTLY Texas cattle imported to mid-west ...In this period 90 per cent of the cattle had BRAHAMA influence that didn't help docility, fertility and carcass quality ,The herds that got started without this progressed a lot faster in the mid-west states ....The Avignon cattle were raised by Double Hook Ranch and the designer group  ...

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2014, 01:36:03 PM »
Now that's just outrageous, Freddy.  The brahma influence saved the breed in the South.  Lowered bw's SUBSTANTIALLY, increased growth rates, increased parasite resistance, increased maternal instinct - the fertility and carcass quality was a wash as both these characteristics were the shortcomings of the early imported fullblood bulls as well.  The herds that got started w/o this are mainly the ones STILL having BW issues to this day.   

Offline Freddy

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 02:25:40 PM »
X-BAR -FOR YOUR COUNTRY DOWN SOUTH I think you are exactly right, but in our northern country the things that helped you wasn't a problem for us .  Herds like Michaelis , 4T AND Yates were some of the early seed stock providers ,MICHAELIS ranch had also cattle in OLD MEXICO that had the French influence also ...Most cattle in 60's were with the brahma influence , but these ranch's were miles ahead of the others with cattle that had no brahma ....Our ranch bought most of their early cattle from the Michaelis and was a super advantage IMO ...4T RANCH had some COTANO breeding and the prettiest females ,had mother look ...The Yates ranch also had good females but seemed like they didn't show as much ...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 02:27:58 PM by Freddy »

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 02:47:38 PM »
fair enough-  though I'd question just how many of those bull coming out of Mexico had no brahman influence.  I have a lot of pictures from my Grandpas fullblood cattle.  I need to scan and save them soon.  Here is a picture of one of his first imported bulls- I think he told me this bull was quarantined in Canada for, I wanna say...2 years?? before he was able to pick him up in Ada, Oklahoma- 1969.


Offline -XBAR-

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Re: What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 02:56:51 PM »
^ I wanna say this was a Bayard son-  but I can't remember for sure.

 

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