Winalot

I have sent embryos to both Germany and Austria in the last two years. In both cases they were a combination of Canadian and US breeding. The market for Shorthorn embryos in EU countries seems to be gaining strength again. We just had our "Frozen in Time" online embryo sale and it ended on Jan 30th- last Friday. We had lots of interest from Britain, and as a result have a tank with 72 embryos heading to England shortly. Up until a couple years ago, the main interest we had from Britain seemed to be in Scotland but in the past couple years, England and Northern Ireland seem to be the hottest markets. Lots and lots of new herds of Shorthorns being established over there. We had a new buyer in this sale that is using embryos to establish their new beef herd after selling off their dairy cows.I think this is the 10th new herd that has been established over there with embryos from us. Many of these new herds have become repeat buyers so they must be happy with the results they are getting.  In this case, they kept a group of dairy cross heifers and are using them as recips. I would say that most of the Brits I am selling embryos to are wanting appendix pedigrees but there are also some who don't care as long as they think the sire and dam are high enough quality. It has been a huge market for us and with this shipment, this will make 160 embryos that have gone to the UK in the past year from our herd. I am also finding that a few UK breeders are now buying females here in Canada and collecting their own embryos. I have sold two cows for this, and one of these guys wants to buy another. They are also buying entire  flushes rather than  just embryos so that they can mate them the way they want to. It is a very different marketplace over there, and what works here, may not be exactly what they want and need over there. What I think they need over there is oftentimes of no concern to them. They want cattle with more growth and frame than we  want here. That is what their markets are demanding.
Our online sale was not over until close to 4 am in the UK. I was totally amazed how many of those people in the UK stayed up and watched their computer screens until the last lot was sold. I wonder how many people we would have watching the sale end here if it ended at 4 a.m. My guess is not many!
A few years ago, I sold a lady in Scotland a group of 10 embryos and she was very fortunate and got 10 calves. Two years later she took the first two bulls she had ever sold to the Perth sale. She contacted me after the sale and said that she was very pleased with how one bull sold but disappointed in how the other sold. The one she was pleased with the selling price sold for 17,800 guineas ( approximately $30,000 + over here). The one she was disappointed in only sold for 8500 guineas ( approximately $17,000  here). Both bulls sold to commercial breeders for use on exotic cross females. I think most everyone over here would have been pleased with both prices received. I had seen both of these bulls when I was in Scotland and I am quite sure they would have sold the opposite way over here. I think the cheaper priced bull was by far the better bull as he was more moderate framed and extremely thick. The higher selling bull was taller, and not as thick made but over there, performance is king.

The Maine influence per se on RB Eagle 148 would have been from Chuck O Lucks Real Silver-I got verbal opinions or inferences on him from several people who either used maine, or knew the deal: Mike Dugdale (who owned part of him-and advertised him as a way to get the growth without using the Ayatollahs etc of the day) Dale Rocker-who owned him too-And bred 148 and alot of other good cattle through daughters of Real Silver-Ed Grathwohl-who saw Real Silver as a calf-and knew where he really came from-as he used Maine all along. if you could see the old Shorthorn Country add Dugdale posted of him-there would be NO DOUBT IN YOUR MIND-that this was not a "native" or "dual" bull O0

Is Maine antagonistic to marbling?
What I am learning from this Maine digression is that they work for certain things. I was xenophobic about Maine, but now I am curious about that deep deep red and long body.
Am I wrong to think that the shape of the hindquarters on the Eagle bulls has something to do with Maine?

Remember I am pretty dumb about most of this and actually never heard of Ayatollah until last week.
Is he like the classic Maine introgression? Or is he the classic Chi introgression? He looks huge?

Per countless examples in countless accounts, breeds in geographic proximity eventually infiltrate the breed over the next hill.  In our global age though, regionalism is obsolete. Looking at climate change, I think commercial Shorthorn breeders should look to Australian genetics, and get that bullet in front of the epigentic trigger.

mark tenenbaum said:

The Maine influence per se on RB Eagle 148 would have been from Chuck O Lucks Real Silver-I got verbal opinions or inferences on him from several people who either used maine, or knew the deal: Mike Dugdale (who owned part of him-and advertised him as a way to get the growth without using the Ayatollahs etc of the day) Dale Rocker-who owned him too-And bred 148 and alot of other good cattle through daughters of Real Silver-Ed Grathwohl-who saw Real Silver as a calf-and knew where he really came from-as he used Maine all along. if you could see the old Shorthorn Country add Dugdale posted of him-there would be NO DOUBT IN YOUR MIND-that this was not a "native" or "dual" bull O0

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I found this photo in the 1977 Shorthorn Country Herd Bull Issue, the photos are poor quality so it didn't scan very well.

librarian said:

Is Maine antagonistic to marbling?In general, Yes

What I am learning from this Maine digression is that they work for certain things. I was xenophobic about Maine, but now I am curious about that deep deep red and long body.
A shot of Maine isn't a bad thing.  Most Sh's could use more muscle.  You just don't want it up too close

Am I wrong to think that the shape of the hindquarters on the Eagle bulls has something to do with Maine?

I think you're on point.  A round coarse muscle pattern is a sure sign of continental influence. Eagle 255 or 229,,,, I mean C'mon---

Remember I am pretty dumb about most of this and actually never heard of Ayatollah until last week.
Is he like the classic Maine introgression? Or is he the classic Chi introgression? He looks huge?
No, neither. Ayatollah was an Illawara.  It's it's own breed. check it out.

Per countless examples in countless accounts, breeds in geographic proximity eventually infiltrate the breed over the next hill.  In our global age though, regionalism is obsolete. Looking at climate change, I think commercial Shorthorn breeders should look to Australian genetics, and get that bullet in front of the epigentic trigger.

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I would encourage you to examine the phenotypes of the Australian bulls you have in mind.  Maybe they've bred cattle that are just so much different than anything I've been exposed to,  but per the school I've always subscribed to, I find it tough to swallow that those cattle have enough internal capacity to fulfill the claims made of their behalf.  This is just my opinion,, and it's a tangible one at that. 

well, all the bulls from Australia that 'look right' to me probably have Canadian breeding in them and the Canadian breeding has Australian breeding.
But my idea is more about using bulls that have the environmental programming to cope with hot, arid weather. Texas bulls would work as well, I guess.
Just my thought that if the Y chromosome carries the information to react to change, then might as well get ahead of adaptation to a drier climate.
But my theory probably falls apart rapidly. Really I am talking about the difference between and respiratory body type and a digestive body type.  This would be why the Australian animals would show less gut...that would be a cold climate method to reduce heat loss. (as I read Bonsma)
I like this one. He probably goes to North American breeding?
The Grove Kookaburra W735

librarian said:

well, all the bulls from Australia that 'look right' to me probably have Canadian breeding in them and the Canadian breeding has Australian breeding.
But my idea is more about using bulls that have the environmental programming to cope with hot, arid weather. Texas bulls would work as well, I guess.
Just my thought that if the Y chromosome carries the information to react to change, then might as well get ahead of adaptation to a drier climate.
But my theory probably falls apart rapidly. Really I am talking about the difference between and respiratory body type and a digestive body type.  This would be why the Australian animals would show less gut...that would be a cold climate method to reduce heat loss. (as I read Bonsma)
I like this one. He probably goes to North American breeding?
The Grove Kookaburra W735

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That is not The Grove Kookaburra W735. Kookaburra is solid red. It may be his son Belmore Osh Kosh but I am not sure who the roan bull is. Kookaburra does have Canadian and some American breeding and comes with some of the most impressive EBV's in the breed and they are high accuracy.

okay, this is him. I like him just as well, but no wonder, looking at the pedigree. Even Winalot is in there!
I will try harder to find an animal bred multiple generations in Australia, top and bottom.  Huntaway,help me, please.
GAFA MOCHICAN (P) Red MCAN457263
EIONMOR MR GUS 85C (P) Red MUSA3977726
EIONMOR KNIGHT RUBY 96R (P) Roan FCAN640732
Sire: DEERHORN CRUICKSHANK 946 (IMP USA) (P) Red IMP4010471
HOMEDALE FLASH (P) Red and White MUSA3882891
DEERHORN 75 LADY 319 (P) Red FUSA3921203
LONEDALE LADY 75TH (P) Roan FUSA3891065
Animal: THE GROVE KOOKABURRA W735 (P) (ET) (AI) Red BDBW735
GR COMBO (P) Red Little White MUSA3818499
BLUE RIDGE TRITAN 76B (IMP CAN) (P) Roan 92X05795
WINALOT LAURA'S TRIUMPH (H) White FCAN646265
Dam: THE GROVE BLUE DALE 2ND (P) (ET) (AI) Roan 95X02367
SPRYS INSTANT POWERHOUSE 3RD (H) (ET) (AI) (SFA) Red 89/05069
THE GROVE DALE 39TH (P) (SFA) Red 91/07107
THE GROVE DALE 11TH (P) (SFA) Red F78/04866

Yup that is Kookaburra. He is quite amazing in that he ranks better than breed average in 19 out of 20 traits they rank in Australia. He is a trait leader in 5. He bred very well. I sold some Kookaburra embryos in our online sale and they topped the sale at $1250 each. I had bought a package of them in Australia and decided to sell a few as a sale feature.

Hey, I found it.
EIONMOR HIGHLANDER 26U

That Australian roan bull above is a Kookaburra son.

librarian said:

okay, this is him. I like him just as well, but no wonder, looking at the pedigree. Even Winalot is in there!
I will try harder to find an animal bred multiple generations in Australia, top and bottom.  Huntaway,help me, please.
GAFA MOCHICAN (P) Red MCAN457263
EIONMOR MR GUS 85C (P) Red MUSA3977726
EIONMOR KNIGHT RUBY 96R (P) Roan FCAN640732
Sire: DEERHORN CRUICKSHANK 946 (IMP USA) (P) Red IMP4010471
HOMEDALE FLASH (P) Red and White MUSA3882891
DEERHORN 75 LADY 319 (P) Red FUSA3921203
LONEDALE LADY 75TH (P) Roan FUSA3891065
Animal: THE GROVE KOOKABURRA W735 (P) (ET) (AI) Red BDBW735
GR COMBO (P) Red Little White MUSA3818499
BLUE RIDGE TRITAN 76B (IMP CAN) (P) Roan 92X05795
WINALOT LAURA'S TRIUMPH (H) White FCAN646265
Dam: THE GROVE BLUE DALE 2ND (P) (ET) (AI) Roan 95X02367
SPRYS INSTANT POWERHOUSE 3RD (H) (ET) (AI) (SFA) Red 89/05069
THE GROVE DALE 39TH (P) (SFA) Red 91/07107
THE GROVE DALE 11TH (P) (SFA) Red F78/04866

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Here is the son of The Grove Kookaburra W735 that we sold to Hatfield Shorthorns in Manitoba during Agribition. We reatined an in herd semen interest and I think he is one of the best bulls we have ever raised. His dam is Diamond Dottie 55G. As JIT pointed out the Grove Kookaburra's EBV's are above average in almost every trait plusa trait leader in 6. Better yet he is a trait leader for eye muscle while still being a trait leader for IMF and milk! Another Australian bull with amazing EBV's is Yamburgan Tobermorey F090, a bull that Crooked Post has recently imported semen from.

Finding full Australian pedigrees in the recent sires is a challenge but in some of the older genetics it is easier. They just don't have photos.

Here is Weebollabolla Turbo and Prince. Turbo is 15/16th Australian but I haven't looked back further.  Prince doesn't have a full pedigree but is likely to be many generations Australian. You can find some comments on him on the Royalla website. Will have to keep searching for others with photos.

Having Used a number of Australian and Canadian sires I would say there is quite a difference in phenotype and the internal volume being a strength up north. I do like how they cross though and Kookaburra would be and was my first choice. I brought the New Zealand rights in Kookaburra after working at Belmore for a bull sale season in 2007. He has done everything I was looking for and hasn't left weaknesses in other areas. Getting low on semen so will use a couple of good sons that are currently on mum next year and selectively use remaining semen.

I also found this Weebollabolla bull. My Parents visited there in August and they still held him in high regard with many decedents still in the herd. He's a Goes back to SFA origins but all his immediate pedigree is Australian.

Winalot Rodney was a baby when I bought the Hennig herd. He was calf champion and champion bull at FarmFair International, was bought by MJ Conway and Partners at Canadian Western Agribition for $17,000.00 Semen was sent to Ireland and the UK.  His dam was Champion heifer calf, junior champion in yearling form, grand champion as 2year with calf at foot. Similar winning for his granddam. Rodney spent his working life at Hawkin Shorthorns at Glenavon SK.

Thanks Scotland
Here at other prices from that sale

CWA Elite Shorthorn Sale
November 24, 2005
Regina, SK
Auctioneer: Chris Poley
Sales Management: T Bar C Cattle Co. Ltd.
Sale Results:
    7.33 Bull Calves Averaged  $ 6,957.71
    10 Bred Heifers Averaged  $ 3,665.00
    25 Heifer Calves Averaged  $ 2,238.00
    1 Cow/Calf Pairs Averaged  $ 7,400.00
    1 Embryo Lot Averaged  $ 1,500.00
44.33 Lots Grossed $152,500.00 and Averaged $3,440.11
  High Selling Bull Calf
        Lot 603 - Winalot Rodney sired by Rod's Captain Noodles 31N X a 2/3 interest and shared possession was purchased by Conway O'Donoghue, Ireland for $17,500.

Huntaway, thank you for the pictures. I especially like the third one, N83.
Did the Canadian breeding boost the IMF on Kookaburra, or is that a strong trait in Australian breeding?
Remind me, please, at what age you finish cattle down there?

librarian said:

Huntaway, thank you for the pictures. I especially like the third one, N83.
Did the Canadian breeding boost the IMF on Kookaburra, or is that a strong trait in Australian breeding?
Remind me, please, at what age you finish cattle down there?

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Imf is becoming a more important trait. I would think in general Canadian shorthorns marble pretty good and was lost somewhat in the Australian shorthorns in the 90's 00's when growth and lean meat where the focus. In Kookaburras case he has some marbling on both sides of the pedigree but what puts him ahead would be the Gus line. 80c and 85c would both be trait leaders. Carcass traits  and performance recording carcass traits are becoming pretty mainstream. 

In New Zealand we would finish cattle anywhere from 16mth to 30mth with an average of 24mths. The aim is to finish before the second winter but is not always possible with seasonal grass growth.
In Australia there are quite a few different markets that you can target which aussie is probably better to comment on.  They also have bigger domestic and export markets where we pretty much export everything, 85%+. They have a vealer market where they are killed at about 10mths at about 220kg. out to a jap ox which is long fed in feedlots to 75o-8ookg. In general I would think they are not pushed along as quick as up there

librarian said:

Here are remarks from previous SP discussions that support the statement that 80C has no infusion of non-Shorthorn blood.  I saw the printout of the animals in the DNA study mentioned in the second post, and 80C was square in the middle of the Native group. I remember because I wrote it down so I could look for him in pedigrees to see how "pure" they were.  But every day I drift father from considering "purity" relevant to the development of specialized genotypes for specialized purposes. On the one hand, racial purity seems like a dead end. On the other hand, what is a species other than a pure genotype?
When we look at a herd of gazelle or deer, aren't they all "peas on a pod"?
Is this due to line breeding under the name of natural selection? More likely is that evolution constantly prunes extreme individuals from the edges of phenotypic variation. The average form may change, but probably not by the instant superiority of novel types. Forms change in relation to changes in environment. Such may be the case with infusions of "impure blood" to established breeds.
Man made the first breed when he robbed an animal of its wild relationship to food and reproduction.  I begin to see the differentiation of breeds not in terms of their genetic distance from one another, but in terms of degrees of genetic impoverishment.

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/old-horned-shorthorn-bulls-semen/15/
Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 10:14:24 PM »
Quote
Just visited with Bert Moore on a similar issue.  If GrousePark wants to keep his native status many of the Irish bulls (improver, leader, etc.) aren't accepted because their pedigrees came over with only one generation and they can't be traced to the coates herd book.  As you can imagine this really limits the bulls you can use.  Eionmor Mr Gus 85C is native.  And it appears that Mr Gus 80C and Mr Gus 30B maybe native also.  Dr. Moore is going to research that for me.

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/native-bulls-from-50's-and-60's/
Re: Native - Shorthorn Bulls from 50's and 60's 
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2014, 05:20:55 PM »
Quote
I have had some conversations about Native Shorthorns with Roy Lovaas. In fact we actually did some DNA studies comparing Shorthorn, Milking Shorthorn, Native Shorthorn, Irish-influenced Shorthorn, and Lincoln Red.
http://steakgenomics.blogspot.com/2014/08/applying-new-technologies-to.html
The article was originally published in the "Lincoln Letter", but it is no longer online, so I posted a copy on my blog

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I'm really very very curious to know the specific names of each dot on this graphic!
Maybe some "rumors" could to be solve!