Blue Roan?

[SJcattle]

Hello everyone,

I was pondering a genetics question and I thought maybe it was best that I ask for opinions on here. I have a shorthorn x angus heifer that I am trying to keep the blue coloring on. Now how would I go about that? I was thinking perhaps putting white shorthorn back in her, but then perhaps I would get the red back in there? Any opinions? Maybe speckle park?

Thanks!
Jenna

 

[frostback]

Hello everyone,

I was pondering a genetics question and I thought maybe it was best that I ask for opinions on here. I have a shorthorn x angus heifer that I am trying to keep the blue coloring on. Now how would I go about that? I was thinking perhaps putting white shorthorn back in her, but then perhaps I would get the red back in there? Any opinions? Maybe speckle park?

Thanks!
Jenna

If you did a white on a blue you would never get a red. Neither parent has a red gene. So no red or red roans.
If you did a white to your blue you have a 50% chance of another blue, and a 50% chance of white.
Going with a black would give you a 50% chance of black and 50% chance of blue.
Another blue gives you a 25% of a all black, 50% of another blue and 25% of a white.
You cannot predict the amount of roaning or how blue a calf will be.

 

[SJcattle]

Hello everyone,

I was pondering a genetics question and I thought maybe it was best that I ask for opinions on here. I have a shorthorn x angus heifer that I am trying to keep the blue coloring on. Now how would I go about that? I was thinking perhaps putting white shorthorn back in her, but then perhaps I would get the red back in there? Any opinions? Maybe speckle park?

Thanks!
Jenna

If you did a white on a blue you would never get a red. Neither parent has a red gene. So no red or red roans.
If you did a white to your blue you have a 50% chance of another blue, and a 50% chance of white.
Going with a black would give you a 50% chance of black and 50% chance of blue.
Another blue gives you a 25% of a all black, 50% of another blue and 25% of a white.
You cannot predict the amount of roaning or how blue a calf will be.

Wow that I didn't know! I always thought they would carry the red gene. Shows you learn something new everyday. Thanks so much for the reply. Definitely helps me narrow down my search.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

First -is a live calf,so calving ease should be the no. 1 priority. After that,I would definitly use a blue if possible;Jakes Blue Moon if the semen is avail.White Jazz might work too.-As far as blacks-I dont know about hiefers-but Rainmaker,and HAA Wisdom have thrown alot of blues,and so has Breathe EZ-however,Im not sure what color the cows were-Simms also throw blues-but again-on what cow? O0

 

[RyanChandler]

Hello everyone,

I was pondering a genetics question and I thought maybe it was best that I ask for opinions on here. I have a shorthorn x angus heifer that I am trying to keep the blue coloring on. Now how would I go about that? I was thinking perhaps putting white shorthorn back in her, but then perhaps I would get the red back in there? Any opinions? Maybe speckle park?

Thanks!
Jenna

If you did a white on a blue you would never get a red. Neither parent has a red gene. So no red or red roans.
If you did a white to your blue you have a 50% chance of another blue, and a 50% chance of white.
Going with a black would give you a 50% chance of black and 50% chance of blue.
Another blue gives you a 25% of a all black, 50% of another blue and 25% of a white.
You cannot predict the amount of roaning or how blue a calf will be.

Wow that I didn't know! I always thought they would carry the red gene. Shows you learn something new everyday. Thanks so much for the reply. Definitely helps me narrow down my search.

They absolutely do carry the red gene!  Blues are only hetero black

White Shorthorns are HOMOZYGOUS ROAN.  You will get red roans breeding white to blue.

 

[SJcattle]

Hello everyone,

I was pondering a genetics question and I thought maybe it was best that I ask for opinions on here. I have a shorthorn x angus heifer that I am trying to keep the blue coloring on. Now how would I go about that? I was thinking perhaps putting white shorthorn back in her, but then perhaps I would get the red back in there? Any opinions? Maybe speckle park?

Thanks!
Jenna

If you did a white on a blue you would never get a red. Neither parent has a red gene. So no red or red roans.
If you did a white to your blue you have a 50% chance of another blue, and a 50% chance of white.
Going with a black would give you a 50% chance of black and 50% chance of blue.
Another blue gives you a 25% of a all black, 50% of another blue and 25% of a white.
You cannot predict the amount of roaning or how blue a calf will be.

Wow that I didn't know! I always thought they would carry the red gene. Shows you learn something new everyday. Thanks so much for the reply. Definitely helps me narrow down my search.

They absolutely do carry the red gene!  Blues are only hetero black

White Shorthorns are HOMOZYGOUS ROAN.  You will get red roans breeding white to blue.

This makes sense to me. Many years ago I had bred my white shorty bull to some black angus influence cows and they came out red with white stars. So with that being said there is a definite chance of a red roan/red out of a blue roan female if you breed them white shorthorn?

Mark, thanks for the suggestions. I've heard of Jakes Proud Jazz a lot for calving ease. Definitely a no. 1 priority for a live calf.

 

[RyanChandler]

Remember genotype and phenotype aren't the same.  If sired by a white bull, what appears red is really a red roan.  Whether its appears (phenotype) red, red w/ white marks, or red and white - if its sired by a white bull its really (genotype) a roan. 

A blue bred white could give you a calf that appears solid red, but by blood, its a roan. 

Same w/ a white calf.  It may appear solid white- but really, its a roan.

The level of 'roaning' expressed is the only distinction. 

 

[SJcattle]

Again I had no idea about that. There is so much I would love to learn about genetics and how they work. What you explained makes sense for sure. 

 

[SSIMMENTALS]

A blue roan can give you a red roan (red appearing) calf if bred to a cow who carries a red gene. Here she would contribute the red and the blue roan would throw white. The red/white would be genetically a red roan but could look red.

However, a blue roan bred to a white animal (two white genes) will not give you any red derivative. There is just no red gene to be had. A blue roan has one black and one white allele. A white has two whites. You get either blue roan (Black from one and white from the other parent) or white(each parent gave their white)

 

[RyanChandler]

please stop confusing the poster. 

First off - there is no such thing as a white shorthorn or any other breed for that matter.  All cattle are either black or red.  Again, all cattle are black or red.  Shorthorns that APPEAR white are HOMOZYGOUS ROAN. The roan gene acts independent of their base color. 

ALL SHORTHORNS ARE HOMOZYGOUS RED. 

A shorthorn calf that appears roan is Homozygous red and Heterozygous for the roaning gene.

A shorthorn calf that appears white is still homozygous red but ALSO Homozygous for the roaning gene. 

A blue roan bred to can give you a red roan if bred to any animal that is not homozygous black.

A blue roan ( 1 black allele, 1 red allele, +1 copy of roan gene) bred to a white (appearing) animal (2 red, +2 roans) can and in most cases WILL give you a red roan. 


Again, there is no such thing as white cattle.  Charolais are Red and Shorthorns are red.  Chars carry a diluter gene.  Shorthorns can carry a roan gene; and when they are also homozygous for roaning, they appear white.  Both are still homozygous RED (e/e).

 

[SSIMMENTALS]

http://www.simmental.org/site/userimages/simbrah_color/shalles_mod.pdf


Follow the link and read. Gives a very basic explanation on page one.  Keep reading if you find it interesting. I didn't understand color inheritance in cattle before college, but a few animal science classes, animal breeding, and genetics classes later, I assure you; white is a color. Its inherited right along with black and red. There are three basic colors in cattle. Red/blk/white. Black is dominant to red. BR or BB =black. Red is recessive. RR=red. White displays partial/incomplete dominance with both. BW or RW = roan. Spots/dilute are inherited separate from your base color.

I don't want to start a war with you XBar... I respect your opinions. I also expect you to respect mine. I haven't been on here in forever, and will probably fade away again here shortly. This is the last post im making in this thread. But I urge the poster to do some research. Look at some university websites. Kansas state. Oklahoma state. Tamu...anywhere. look for extension articles or papers explaining the inheritance of coat color. Find your own information. As you can see on a forum you're very likely to get conflicting answers from parties who both believe they are correct.

 

[SJcattle]

Okay... I'll definitely do some more research around the web and different resources. I didn't mean to start an argument here. Thanks for both of your replies and knowledge, I appreciate it.

 

[RyanChandler]

That article-published by the Simmental Assoc- is incorrect.  Black and red are the only 2 base colors in cattle.  A white shorthorn is homozygous red and homozygous for the roaning gene. A red roan is homozygous red and hetero for the roaning gene.

If white were a color (a base color like the article suggests) the only combination you would get breeding a white shorthorn to angus cows would be solid black or solid white.  Everyone knows this to be false.  The progeny of any white (appearing) shorthorn will be roan, or if bred to another animal who also carries a roan gene, the progeny could receive 2 copies of the roaning gene -1 from each parent- and be homozygous roan thus appearing white.

 

[RyanChandler]

Genetics are a bit of a hobby of mine, so maybe I can help explain the roan gene. I have a blog that is pretty informative (I think) about color genetics in general too. This is a bit long, but hopefully it is understandable.

First off, you have to understand that there are 3 base coat colors, Black which is dominant, Wild type which is recessive to black, and Red which is recessive to both Black and Wild. All other colors are MODIFIERS. No matter what color the animal is (from white to grey to roan to tan to spotted) his base coat will ALWAYS be Black, Wild or Red.

The roan gene is incompletely dominant which means that a homozygous animal will present different traits than a heterozygous animal. This happens MOST of the time, but there are other modifier genes which affect the shade of roan so it is possible to have a hetero animal look the same as a homo animal.

A homo roan (RR)will be white
A hetero roan(Rr) will range in shade from almost solid colored to almost white, in some cases they may look white.
And a homo solid colored (rr) will of course be solid colored with no roaning.

Now, if you take a Roan animal (Rr) and breed it to a solid colored animal (rr)

You have a 50% chance of having a roan (Rr)
and a 50% chance of having a solid(rr)

If you take a Roan (Rr) animal and breed it Roan(Rr)
you have a 25% chance of gettig a white (RR)
50% chance of a roan (Rr)
25% chance of a solid (rr)

If you take a roan (Rr) animal and breed it white(RR)
50% chance of white (RR)
50% chance of roan (Rr)

If you take white (RR) and breed it solid (rr)
100% chance of roan.

Now, to get a blue roan instead of a red roan, you have to understand how the Black/Red genes work.
Black is dominant
Red is recessive

If you have homo black (EE) and breed it hetero black (Ee) (carrying red gene)
50% chance of homo black (EE)
50% chance of hetero black (Ee)

Breed a homo black (EE) to a red (ee)
100% chance of hetero black (ee)

Breed a homo black (EE) to homo black
100% chance of homo black (EE)

Breed Hetero black(Ee) to red (ee)
50% chance of hetero black (Ee)
50% chance of red (ee)

Breed hetero black(Ee) to hetero black(Ee)
25% chance of homo black (EE)
50% chance of hetero black (Ee)
25% chance of red (ee)

my blog http://easygenes.blogspot.com

 

[turning grass into beef]

In my genetics class in university I was taught that the shorthorn coat color was due to co dominance, not incomplete dominance.  If you want someone ( or something ) smarter than me to explain it look up "punnett square" on Wikepedia and click on 'dominant' in the 'monohybrid cross' section.
If my professor and Wikepedia are correct, in theory , there is no chance of getting a red or red roan from mating a genotypical blue roan to a genotypical white shorthorn.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

In my genetics class in university I was taught that the shorthorn coat color was due to co dominance, not incomplete dominance.  If you want someone ( or something ) smarter than me to explain it look up "punnett square" on Wikepedia and click on 'dominant' in the 'monohybrid cross' section.
If my professor and Wikepedia are correct, in theory , there is no chance of getting a red or red roan from mating a genotypical blue roan to a genotypical white shorthorn./// I dont think there is a definite pattern but from a very non scientific view-this makes the most sense to me-It seems that both animals need shorthorn and Angus-more or less non-dilured genes on both sides along with actual colors-maybe thats why certain Simms (made black by Angus) throw blues. I have seen second generation blues in club calf sales that dont have Shorthorn untill you get to great grand parents-it may be that the Angus in the woodpile-had a dominate roan gene from long ago =as Angus are descended from the Shorthorn gene pool.The only repetitve blues I have seen are the Grey cattle from 100 years ago in Scotland-and some of the Galloway Shorthorn crosses-dealing with much older and undisturbed bloodlines in both cases.

 

[randiliana]

In my genetics class in university I was taught that the shorthorn coat color was due to co dominance, not incomplete dominance.  If you want someone ( or something ) smarter than me to explain it look up "punnett square" on Wikepedia and click on 'dominant' in the 'monohybrid cross' section.
If my professor and Wikepedia are correct, in theory , there is no chance of getting a red or red roan from mating a genotypical blue roan to a genotypical white shorthorn.

It seems that you are right about that. I looked that up on Wikipedia and I now understand the difference between Incomplete and Co- Dominance.

I would have to disagree with both your professor and Wikepedia, however on the idea that you couldn't get a Red Roan from a mating of a Blue Roan to a White Shorthorn. That would totally depend upon your Blue Roan.

Because the Shorthorn breed is a RED breed, which has modifiers that cause Roan or Spots, a WHITE Shorthorn is (homozygous) RED (ee) and homozygous ROAN (RR) (essentially it could also be homo or hetero for spots, but that is another discussion)

So your White Shorthorn is eeRR.

Now where the possibility or non-possibility of getting a Red Roan comes in is your BLUE roan.
Firstly you have to realize that a Blue Roan is a BLACK (EE or Ee) animal (could be homo or hetero) that is also Heterozygous (Rr) for the ROAN gene.

Now if your Blue Roan is a F1 Cross between a Shorthorn (remember RED) and ANY Black breed (We can use Black Angus as an example)

So Breed Black Angus(EErr) cow to a Roan(eeRr) or White Shorthorn(eeRR) cow and in this case since we know the calf is a Blue Roan your calf is EeRr (heterozygous Black and heterozygous Roan)

Now if you take that calf which is EeRr and you breed it to a WHITE Shorthorn eeRR you could get

EeRR which should be WHITE (possibly with some black hairs here and there)
EeRR again
EeRr which should be a Blue Roan (there are a lot of variations in colour depth though)
EeRr again
eeRR which should again be white (possibly with some RED hairs here and there, this is your typical WHITE Shorthorn)
eeRR again
eeRr which should be a RED Roan (this is your typical ROAN Shorthorn)
eeRr again.

SO you have a:
50% chance of WHITE (although really it is 25% that it would be BLACK base coat and 25% that it would be RED base coat)

25% chance of RED Roan

25% chance of BLUE Roan

If your original Blue Roan were not an F1 Shorthorn x Angus but for example was a Blue Roan crossed back to Angus one or more generations you could quite easily have a homozygous BLACK animal that is also carrying the Roan gene, so that would be EERr. If this were the case, and you crossed back to a WHITE Shorthorn eeRR , you would get:

EeRR A White animal possibly showing some black hairs
EeRR again
EeRr A BLUE Roan
EeRr again.
So 50% chance of white (black Base coat) and 50% chance of a Blue Roan.

 

[randiliana]

Hello everyone,

I was pondering a genetics question and I thought maybe it was best that I ask for opinions on here. I have a shorthorn x angus heifer that I am trying to keep the blue coloring on. Now how would I go about that? I was thinking perhaps putting white shorthorn back in her, but then perhaps I would get the red back in there? Any opinions? Maybe speckle park?

Thanks!
Jenna

Essentially, with a F1 Shorthorn x Angus you have no guarantee of getting a Blue Roan calf, no matter what you breed her. Speckle Park wouldn't give you a true blue roan as that is a different colour pattern altogether. With Speckle Park crossed to your Blue Roan you would most likely get a black base coat, but you would also have heterozygous colour sided pattern (think of your spotted longhorns) and a possibility of the roan gene as well.

First off your heifer has a 50% chance of having a roan calf no matter what you breed her to. She also would pass on the Black gene 50% of the time or the Red gene 50% of the time.

If you were to breed her back to a White Shorthorn your colour possibilities are
50% White (black or red base coat)
25% Blue
25% Red Roan (see my other reply)

If you were to breed her to a Red Roan Shorthorn you would have
25% White (red or black base coat)
25% Red Roan
25% Blue Roan
12.5% Red
12.5% Black

If you were to breed her Black Angus (homo Black)
50% Blue Roan
50% Black

If you bred her Red
25% Blue Roan
25% Red Roan
25% Black
25% Red

 

[RyanChandler]

(thumbsup) <party> <beer> (thumbsup) <party> <beer>

 

[frostback]

[


[/quote]


White Shorthorns are HOMOZYGOUS ROAN.  .
[/quote]

That is the funniest thing I have read in a while, and with that I will not ever post on this subject again. I knew better....