Cow size

[aj]

I heard on the radio today.......a K-State beef specialists discussing replacement heifers. I almost ran into the ditch at what he had to say. He theorized that the best replacements may not be the largest weighted females. They may not be the heaviest milking females. He said that the fastest way to cut supplementation needs was to reduce cow size. When the academia swings around to a common sense idea one might wonder if the smaller cow deal may start to swing around. Maybe its not a Kit Pharo radical concept. I can't help but think that maybe the maternal breeds might head a little more this direction. I know the Shorthorn show ring people love their 1700# cows but could this thing swing back around in my lifetime. Kinda interesting.

 

[kfacres]

but could this thing swing back around in my lifetime. Kinda interesting.

depends on how long you live...

I can see the heaviest milking not being the most ideal-- in a heavy milking herd... but there isn't any correlation b/w milking ability and cow size.

 

[aj]

I stand corrected. Long live those 1700# cows.

 

[Simmgal]

Some of our best cows have been smaller Hereford X Angus or Simmental X Hereford. They calve easy, use less feed and wean off a calf that is about as big as they are. Too bad we only have about 10 of those.

 

[kfacres]

I stand corrected. Long live those 1700# cows.

but could this thing swing back around in my lifetime. Kinda interesting.

but there isn't any correlation b/w milking ability and cow size.

Wait, unless you injected Holstein in them-- then there would be...

UNLESS, you put some Jersey in there-- then you'd up milk production, with lowering frame score.... Holy cow, putting Jersey in there- would also: increase marbling, help with calving ease/ birth weight, decrease frame score, increase femininity, and bring in the curly calf gene... 

HM??? Does that sound familiar? 

 

[Mill Iron A]

Midget cattle are still not the answer. Maybe just average size cattle that can still produce adequate growth for feedlot cattle with carcass traits still intact as well as most importantly rib, structure, and femininity.  To me I know what you mean by "maternal" cattle but I don't think you should limit that to breeds.  I have seen plenty of termina shorthorn and angus in my day even though these breeds are considered maternal.  I still hold out that there are charolais females that are much more maternal, feminine, and more balanced in their sized than especially Gardners herd.

 

[frostback]

I heard on the radio today.......a K-State beef specialists discussing replacement heifers. I almost ran into the ditch at what he had to say. He theorized that the best replacements may not be the largest weighted females. They may not be the heaviest milking females. He said that the fastest way to cut supplementation needs was to reduce cow size. When the academia swings around to a common sense idea one might wonder if the smaller cow deal may start to swing around. Maybe its not a Kit Pharo radical concept. I can't help but think that maybe the maternal breeds might head a little more this direction. I know the Shorthorn show ring people love their 1700# cows but could this thing swing back around in my lifetime. Kinda interesting.

So sorry to hear that.

 

[wyatt]

if im not mistaken occ has some fairly small cows, and they are very easy fleshing, good milking ,easy calving cows... i would also be scared people would think tiny heat waves that have 145lbs birth weights would even have the smallest chance to make a remotely good cow

 

[KSanburg]

So here is a question for all of you, what is your "ideal" sized cow? I think there are extremes of both, by that I mean we have saw a huge swing from the cattle of the 50's to the late 80's and 90's. Now we see shows and breeding for "miniatures". Wasn't it in the 60's that the dwarf gene came out in the Hereford breed and ruined several breeders, and while the miniature Herefords do not show the same characteristics of the dwarf cattle there are many breeder that shutter when they see the miniatures because we tried so hard to get away from that stigma. I guess what I see is any cow that can efficiently raise a calf and wean an average of  55% to 60% of their own body weight may be the best cow. So a 1200 lb cow should wean a 660 lb calf. I believe there are cattle out there that will do that year end and year out.

So do the shortie showring cows at 1700 wean a 935 pound calf, I doubt very many of them will do it, but those breeders may figure they are giving up efficiency for confirmation and show market ability. I know that I have some 1350 lb. Hereford cows that will raise a 720 to 760 pound calf consistently and I have some 1600 lb cow that will not do any better, but occasionally they bring home a 820 lb calf that will knock your socks off and that still doesn't make 55% of her body weight.When touring some breeders farms I always liked to find out at what age they were when the breeders took their 205 day weights because of the boost that they received when it was adjusted.

 

[wyatt]

id say 1200 to 1500 lbs for me i like them to have some meat on there bones and not look like a dairy cow tho (not trying to make any dairy breeder mad)... with that said i believe they should be smaller and more compact to give the cow more of a dual purpose,with some easy fleshing ability  O0

 

[kfacres]

id say 1200 to 1500 lbs for me i like them to have some meat on there bones and not look like a dairy cow tho (not trying to make any dairy breeder mad)... with that said i believe they should be smaller and more compact to give the cow more of a dual purpose,with some easy fleshing ability  O0

So is there a difference b/w a bag of bones 1200 lb cow, and a frame 3 1200 lb cow?  Or would they both fit into your window of ideal...

 

[aj]

This guy mentioned that a cow can only eat so much low quality forage in a day(which in theory is what a cow was made for). The larger cow thus needs to eat that much more to maintain flesh. If she doesn't eat that much more a higher % of her weight group will come up open. Again this if if she isn't in a show barn eating show feed or two ton of alfalfa a year.

 

[LLBUX]

Tough question, but my ideal cow is gonna be 1300 pounds in medium flesh.  She'll be a frame 6-7 and produce calves of similar type.

I go to the sale barn and see smaller, fleshy feeder cattle take a huge hit of 20-50 cents/pound.  The taller, rangier calves top the market due to perceived potential of additional growth and fewer days on feed for the feeder.    Under normal circumstances, I feel this premium pays for the extra cow feed/pasture expenses.
Calves that I keep for my own feeding grow faster and more efficiently than the smaller-framed cattle.    

I wish I could find scientific calving data on cows of varying frame scores.  Our herd of bigger cows/heifers have had zero calving issues for the past several years.  (Purebred Angus herd with purebred bulls)   Little consideration has been given to calving EPD's.

There are exceptions in every case of course, but larger framed cattle have always worked for us.  They seem to wean a heavy calf with little extra work.  Calves go right into the feedlot and are slaughtered at 11-13 months weighing 1200-1400#    This spring's March Angus calves are weighing 800-900 on most steers and 700-800 on the heifers.

For me, I gotta have some frame.  My Belties don't meet the above standard, but they are by nature a smaller breed.  It's gonna take me a few years to get them in line.

 

[Aussie]

Tough question, but my ideal cow is gonna be 1300 pounds in medium flesh.  She'll be a frame 6-7 and produce calves of similar type.

I go to the sale barn and see smaller, fleshy feeder cattle take a huge hit of 20-50 cents/pound.  The taller, rangier calves top the market due to percieved potential of additional growth and fewer days on feed for the feeder.    Under normal circumstances, I feel this premium pays for the extra cow feed/pasture expenses.
Calves that I keep for my own feeding grow faster and more efficiently than the smaller-framed cattle.    

I wish I could find scientific calving data on cows of varying frame scores.  Our herd of bigger cows/heifers have had zero calving issues for the past several years.  (Purebred Angus herd with purebred bulls)   Little consideration has been given to calving EPD's.

There are exceptions in every case of course, but larger framed cattle have always worked for us.  They seem to wean a heavy calf with little extra work.  Calves go right into the feedlot and are slaughtered at 11-13 months weighing 1200-1400#    This spring's March Angus calves are weighing 800-900 on most steers and 700-800 on the heifers.

I agree with LLBUX

I have resisted this tread but a pet subject of mine. AJ you can always bring up  (argue) subjects  (thumbsup)

Frame + Thickness = Weight = Profit

 

[aj]

If bigger cows mean bigger profit Aussiee then a 2,000 # cow  would mean more profit.......how big can we make the cows? Is a 2,000# cow something to shoot for as far as an average. Can we make em all that big? Can we make them bigger?Could we add some of the ole white chi blood to them if we keep em wide and long?

 

[kfacres]

elite and upper class genetic selection can do anything...  2000?? Why not 3?  Inject a little belgium blue into them.. some old white Chi-- maybe a little fleckvieh....

 

[wyatt]

id say 1200 to 1500 lbs for me i like them to have some meat on there bones and not look like a dairy cow tho (not trying to make any dairy breeder mad)... with that said i believe they should be smaller and more compact to give the cow more of a dual purpose,with some easy fleshing ability  O0

So is there a difference b/w a bag of bones 1200 lb cow, and a frame 3 1200 lb cow?  Or would they both fit into your window of ideal...

i do not want my cattle to look like this...

 

[vcsf]

Tough question, but my ideal cow is gonna be 1300 pounds in medium flesh.  She'll be a frame 6-7 and produce calves of similar type.

I go to the sale barn and see smaller, fleshy feeder cattle take a huge hit of 20-50 cents/pound.  The taller, rangier calves top the market due to perceived potential of additional growth and fewer days on feed for the feeder.    Under normal circumstances, I feel this premium pays for the extra cow feed/pasture expenses.
Calves that I keep for my own feeding grow faster and more efficiently than the smaller-framed cattle.    

I wish I could find scientific calving data on cows of varying frame scores.  Our herd of bigger cows/heifers have had zero calving issues for the past several years.  (Purebred Angus herd with purebred bulls)   Little consideration has been given to calving EPD's.

There are exceptions in every case of course, but larger framed cattle have always worked for us.  They seem to wean a heavy calf with little extra work.  Calves go right into the feedlot and are slaughtered at 11-13 months weighing 1200-1400#    This spring's March Angus calves are weighing 800-900 on most steers and 700-800 on the heifers.

For me, I gotta have some frame.  My Belties don't meet the above standard, but they are by nature a smaller breed.  It's gonna take me a few years to get them in line.

I agree with most of what you are saying.  I also like cattle that are a frame 6 to 7 and I have nothing against 1300 pound cows and have had several that have done excellent jobs.  However I am going to disagree with you in that if I have a frame 7 cow in decent condition she had better be weighing close to 1500 pounds or more or else she does not have enough thickness and depth for me or is very short bodied.  That is just my opinion.  I also have nothing against frame 5 cows of the right type but if they get much smaller I think a person will start to get docked fairly hard.

 

[aj]

llbux....do you run the belties with the other cattle or are they managed seperately?

 

[Aussie]

AJ in my environment a 6 to 7 frame 1450# (650kg) cows work well. I have seen many good frame 5 cows but environment has made them that size genetically they are the same as mine.

Here are some examples of my cows and a bull which fit my breeding aims. It is very hard to breed larger framed cattle with a lot of natural thickness but that is my goal