Qualifiying my endorsement of Major Money Man

[SWMO]

After having a successful calving season last year with Money Man and really liking his calves we used him again this year.  Calves have all come easy and have looked great. 

HOWEVER,  we have had to shoot a steer calf this weekend.  Calf was 40 days old and was so bad on his back legs that he was getting to the point that he couldn't get up.  As straight legged a calf as I have ever seen.  Spastic paresis in both hind legs.  Pitiful to watch him try to get around.

Will be very cautious about using this bull in the future.  I do not believe in the philosophy of "THROWAWAY CALVES"  esp dead throwaway calves.  It is not a good feeling to bury money.  The cow is good legged and absolutely not straight at all.  Talked to a couple of people at a jackpot this past weekend and they said that they have also seen some pretty straight calves out of Money Man.

Husband is about to swear off the Clubby side of things altogether.  But the weather has been bad, fighting scours, fighting the wind, getting ready for a HARD

 

[SWMO]

Oops hit the post button by mistake.

Getting ready for a hard freeze tonight.  So maybe when the weather decides to straighten up things will look brighter. 

 

[justme]

SWMO...Major's will tell you thereselves that not to use him on a straight legged cow, he can throw some straight. I know your cow has good legs, but that is just something they told me.  I've had phenominal calves out of him last year and this year and also my Money Man son.  Guess any bull can throw a bad one.

 

[knabe]

so he may be a spastic pareisis carrier.  supposedly the maine association has beever working on that.  hopefully there is absolutely no linkage between SP and straighter back legs.

 

[DL]

There is a huge difference between straight legs and spastic paresis - spastic paresis is believed to be genetic and in essence it is lethal - you need to kill the calf at some point to put it out of it's misery.

PLEASE SWMO dig up that calf and send an ear along with a purple top tube of blood and pedigree, plus your description of the calf and any pictures you might have to Dr Beever. If you can't get the cow bled now put the ear in the freezer - PLEASE

He is collecting samples in the hopes of identifying the mutation in Maines

I have been skulking around and collecting samples and pedigrees - with the 50K SNP CHIP we don't need as many as we did for TH and PHA

I too had a spastic calf out of MM this year - she isn't even 6 weeks old - what I noticed about this calf and other spastic calves I have dealt with is that they lie down a lot (but appear perfectly normal) and then one day you look at them and you know they are spastic -it's crying shame to have to kill a baby calf

I have more MM on the ground and am worried about another one - plan on getting samples from everyone for Dr B - we need to take responsibility to get these samples to Beever so we can avoid this heartache in the future...

 

[knabe]

hopefully only cunia had it.

 

[justme]

doesn't it take TWO carriers to get an SP calf?  and was the calf confirmed as having SP?  I don't want to sound like a cheerleader at all, but when TH and PHA was coming out there were alot of people crying TH and PHA and weren't some of those people wrong?  I'd just hate for this great bull to get bashed without scientific proof or at least a vet confirmation. ( I know your a vet DL).  Honestly he's the best bull I've ever used hands down.

Heavens don't tear me apart, I'm just playing peace maker here making people look at both sides of the equation.

 

[Jill]

It does seem kind of strange that this bull has been active for 7 or 8 years and all of a sudden there is a problem.
SWMO, I really wouldn't consider Money Man to be part of the clubby deal, he is a solid purebred Maine Anjou bull.

 

[kanshow]

I'm sorry you've had a problem but I sure hate to see a bull publically bashed based on one incident.    

 

[SWMO]

Neither did I and that is one of the main reasons that we used the bull.  I was not bashing hard on the bull but I do think that there needs to be information out there when it is available.  I honestly do really like the calves that we have on the ground however, it is never economical to have to shoot a 40 day old calf!  We need to know where the problem is AND yes the calf was definately spastic!  I have been in the cattle business long enough to know if one has been injured or sick rather than a developing issue like this calf had starting at about 25 days of age.

 

[chambero]

SP calves suck!  I had to kill two and one was only mild and was able to get to the sale barn.  One was named "Stitch" and was my son's first calf from his first show heifer.  Not fun to deal with in the least. 

This was my first year in four not to have any thank goodness.

On my females that had SP calves, I went completely away from Maine genetics (used Angus and Charolais) in hopes of avoiding it.  If they get serious about working on a test I'll send in samples on those females. 

I'm no expert, but I think a lot of Maine-influenced cattle have it.  But as DL has said and I've read in other places, I don't think its simple dominant/recessive and some cases are worse than others.  It also develops at different times.  But just all of a sudden one day they have it.  I never noticed my affective calves being too straight before they came down with it.

 

[DL]

justme - relax -and exactly what kind of scientific proof would you like? he may be the best bull you ever used - I sure like my MM calves - the ones that aren't spastic

we do not know the genetics of SP - which is exactly why we need to obtain the information and the samples

I diagnose SP every year - once you see it - you recognize it - it is like yer aunt Tilly, you know her because you have seen her before

I don't think anyone is publicly bashing the bull - I think people are describing their experience- it is no different that posting a picture of a calf - it is information - you can decide to use it or not - but in the meantime it would be good if people remember if you have a weird calf - please save the ear, get blood from the dam, send a picture and pedigree and the samples to Dr B

chambero - can you PM me pedigrees of your SP dams? tx

 

[mooch]

SWMO thanks for sharing honest info ,no matter how unpopular wondered about the rear wheels on the MoneyMans after seeing some of the baby  photos. By the way If you see SP you'll know it .

 

[Jill]

I guess we've just been lucky, haven't had anything with it, do they know what bloodlines are suspect?

 

[DL]

I guess we've just been lucky, haven't had anything with it, do they know what bloodlines are suspect?

You have been lucky - hope your luck holds - it is a miserable vile condition - it is one thing to have a calf born dead - it is quite another to have to kill one because the cannot walk and you know they will never get better

As of today - all bloodlines are suspect and all bloodlines are innocent - we haven't a clue yet...

 

[justme]

so...do they think it takes to carriers to make a sp calf like TH and PHA?

Wow I'm with Jill though odd that a 10 year old bull has this defect coming out all of a sudden.  I'm lucky then my calves look great thus far from him and my money man son boom box

 

[chambero]

All of our SP calves traced to one of our bulls.  He was a Playmate (the Chi-X) out of a Power Plant cow.  We had one affected calf per year out of him.  One cow was a Meyer GD and I don't what the other one was (she was a Maine-X, but she came from the days before we documented lineage on all females).  My son's show heifer was out of him and her first calf (Hard Core) was affected.  I wouldn't venture to guess if both parents have to be carriers or not. 

 

[knabe]

black gold in both hard core, MMM, but not power plant.  cunia in all three.  maybe some others.  power plant pedigree may not be accurate?  not that that means SP is from outside maine genetics.

 

[CAB]

  Do any of you think that this sort of information/questions, has or had anything to do with the AMAA board changing the regs. as far as the zero tolerance of registering PHA carrier cattle?

 

[DL]

so...do they think it takes to carriers to make a sp calf like TH and PHA?

Wow I'm with Jill though odd that a 10 year old bull has this defect coming out all of a sudden.  I'm lucky then my calves look great thus far from him and my money man son boom box

Because of the variable presentation (some severe very young, some get spastic over a year and it progresses slowly) it is unlikely to be regular run of the mill recessive - it would not be regular dominant of the sire or dam would be affected

FYI - there needs to be a certain  level or prevalence of the mutation in the population before people take notice

Draft Pick - 1989 (PHA in Maines)
Improver  - 1972 (TH in Shorthorns)
GAR Precision 1680 - 1990 (AM and hydro)
Stormalong - MB in RA (1957)