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Offline DL

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PHA calf video
« on: January 10, 2008, 11:47:30 AM »
Frostback asked for a noncontroversial name the breed but I don't have a picture here (I'll try later, honest!) - so instead I posted a video of a C-section of a PHA calf on youtube -

If you have not had the unpleasant experience of having a PHA calf this likely will give you pause. The cow was euthanized because of peritonitis. It is in 2 parts



(cow)

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Offline red

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 11:53:56 AM »
I see where JHM is eating his words. It takes a big man to do that. Sorry his wife had a TH calf.

Thanks!

Red
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Offline red

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 11:56:46 AM »
sorry DL, weak stomach just couldn't take it. Now I know why the guys send me in when they have problems calving.  :'(
Red
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Offline knabe

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2008, 11:59:38 AM »
i watched it.  inadvertently it is a name the breed.  is it maine?

dl, has anyone ever done a c-section in the field on a pha calf, er cow, successfully, ie, the cow lived and gave birth at some point again?

good job.

Offline DL

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 12:36:06 PM »
i watched it.  inadvertently it is a name the breed.  is it maine?

dl, has anyone ever done a c-section in the field on a pha calf, er cow, successfully, ie, the cow lived and gave birth at some point again?

good job.

actually knabe,  Frostback wanted name the breed but I don't have any pictures here so I gave you this instead!

There are cases where the cow lives after a PHA calf, both hard pull and C-section. There are also cases where the cow rebreeds. There are also cases where the cow has to be shot because even after a C-section they cannot get the calf out. 
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Offline Olson Family Shorthorns

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 12:42:52 PM »
Wow...that was gut-wrenching.  I sure am glad that we are testing everything nowadays.  I really feel for the folks who had one of these monsters before we knew about PHA. 

Oh, and if I had to guess on the breed, I would say 'horn.  Ugly beasties those PHA buggers be.

Offline showsteernc

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2008, 01:36:05 PM »
Ok I am now a believer. I knew that PHA wasn't a good thing, but, wow, that ain't easy to see. I sure am glad that people are now taking steps to test more for this. Any estimates on the weight of the calf? How far over or under term was he?

Offline red

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2008, 01:38:17 PM »
usually the calf is so heavy from the excess fluid build-up. i've heard of them weighing over 180 pounds.
Any thing on TH calf's birth?
Just remember, you need 2 carriers mating/AI'd  for the affected calf.

Red
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 01:40:09 PM by red »
"People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care"
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Offline kimbaljd

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2008, 01:41:28 PM »
Wow, that was an experience! I just finished my lunch right before I watched that. That calf is huge.
Jason

Offline SD

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2008, 02:28:48 PM »
DL - That was cool! 8)

But what a waste. This is why I won't buy into certain breeds or clubbies.

Can you tell me what breeds have this problem? Are breeds with the breed up programs at risk of bringing this problem into their registries?
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Offline knabe

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2008, 02:51:25 PM »
dexters
http://pdca-one.blogspot.com/2007/02/pha-in-dexters.html

shorthorns, through stinger mainly
pb chi's crossed with maine's mainly, chimaine
maine's
angus maybe, but could be bulldogs, unless "hidden" parentage
crossbreds to the above

probably more, but most probably don't have the pool of ladies in waiting that the above breeds do.

no real selection pressure till 25 years ago, and it increased dramatically a few years ago.

would love to see if present in france population of maines

Offline DL

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2008, 02:54:07 PM »
DL - That was cool! 8)

But what a waste. This is why I won't buy into certain breeds or clubbies.

Can you tell me what breeds have this problem? Are breeds with the breed up programs at risk of bringing this problem into their registries?

Yeah SD - a huge waste both of a cow and calf.

In the US the Maine Anjou breed is the origin of PHA. It is felt that an early European import (to either US or Canada0 brought the defective gene - 2 old fullblood bulls - Paramount and Dalton have been identified as carriers, but we haven't been able to go back before that.

In "modern times" 3 relatively popular AI bulls have been the source of the defective gene in Maines, Shorthorns, and composite cattle. Draft Pick and Stinger (MA bulls) as Payback (registered with the ACA) are the source of the defect . The defective gene was identified using Draft Pick genetics (you need lost of samples from clean, carrier and affected animals) as well as complete pedigrees. Stinger was used in the Shorthorn breed, and most PHA carrier Shorthorns trace to him (not all). Paramount is also found in Shorthorn pedigrees. Paybacks pedigree is incomplete, but genetically both he and Stinger seem to trace to Dalton, while Draft Pick traces to Paramount. There is on registered half blood Simmie bull (Theobald 696) who is a carrier (Stinger).

People make the mistake of thinking that if the sire is clean and the bottom half of the pedigree says something like MAX that the cow is clean and they use carrier bulls with bad results.

There are lists of carriers available although not as easily as before - but certainly any breed using carrier genetics is at risk of giving the gift of PHA to their breed. When the gene was first identified in late 2006, over 40 popular Maine-Anjou, Shorthorn, and club calf sires were identified as PHA carriers. Interestingly, several of the most popular Shorthorn bulls are carrier for both TH and PHA.

A recent report from Australia described PHA in Dexter cattle - the defect in the Dexter breed is different from the defect  that originated with the MA breed.
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Offline Zach

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2008, 03:34:13 PM »
is that you doing the surgery?

1:58 on the second video is like a cow peeing on a rock... O0  :o
The livestock (show) industry is a tough one- if you've never had anything worth a damn you might as well go on the internet and rundown everybody you can.

Offline SD

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2008, 04:21:57 PM »
Thanks for the info in your relies, DL & Knabe.

I know this running theme, PHA & TH, has been, at times, passionate, but I have found it informative and interesting. One of my pet peeves is to always be given as much information as possible when buying cattle and this has caused me to add a few more question on my list. So thanks DL.

Tact and Political Correctness were developed by those who lack the Testicular Fortitude to say what they really mean.

Online CAB

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Re: PHA calf video
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 05:14:18 PM »
The truth of the matter is, that any breed can carry the defective gene. Any cow that has been mated to a PHAC, the offspring has a chance of being a carrier. By some of the questions and responses, the teaching about PHA and TH is far from done. I used to think that pretty much everyone that was on the boards could not be unaware of how  the defective genes work their evil, so I say DL & whoever, you still need to champion your cause. I myself am still more than likely going to use bulls that are carriers. That is my choice, but I sure don't want others to be hurt in anyway by these 2 recessive genetic defects.
   The breeds listed above are the main culprits. Most breeds can be analyzed clean by pedigrees, but if there ever was a chance that a hf/cow was mated to a PHAC, they will be as vulnerable as any other hf/cow. If you read  the thread yesterday, Red & Yuppiecowboy cleaned up a bunch of my females by pedigree.

 

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