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In my understanding, double muscle is part of west european cattle population.
Possibly was introduced on Shorthorn cattle through cattle from The Netherlands region on the breed formation on XVII century.
If Maine Anjou, Belgina Blue and other doube muscle breeds got their genes from Shorthorn or not will to be a question to be answered through adequate genetics tests.
By the way this population on west europe has this genes as many breeds without Shorthorn genes also show DM and cullard type as Parthenais, Aubrac, Asturiana de los Valles.
Bred and use the genetics that is useful for you. But, have in mind that the action always came with reactions.

The Big Show / Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« on: January 15, 2020, 03:58:28 PM »
Dairy Shorthorns in Uk also allowed Holstein, as well as Norwegian Red, Swedish Red, Ayrshire, Illawarras, Red Danish. They starts the crossbredings on the 60's and now is very rare find real pure Dairy Shorthorn on UK without infusions.
Seems like Shorthorn is an extinct breed.

That is the same problem here in the US.  What the AMSS did when they allowed those outside breeds, they gave them full Milking Shorthorn numbers.  When we started our registry, we were noticing that many of our Scandinavian breeds were showing a percentage of Milking Shorthorn.  After following the trail, we discovered that the Norwegian bull K.Schie was identified as a Milking Shorthorn and had no ancestry showing for him.  We added several generations to his ancestry and then we had to correct his ID so that his Norwegian Red number was the primary number.  Also the Illawarra were given full Milking Shorthorn numbers and in doing so offspring of those bulls born in the US were not being included in the International proofs at Interbull.

With so much outside breed influence the Milking Shorthorn for the most part is nothing more than another Red Holstein as many of them today are over 50% Holstein genetics.  Breeders are finding out just how little Milking Shorthorn genetics are in their cattle and many are looking for ways to bring the purity of the Milking Shorthorn up to a much higher level.  If they don't the breed may very well find itself in extinction, this is a comment that I have heard several times from geneticists and others in the last couple of months.  This is not only a problem in the US, but all other countries that have Milking Shorthorn.

Some times I have the feel that some Breeders Societies make this intentionally. To cause mistakes and breeders lose her patience and enter in full on the mongrels crossbreedings!

Always had in ind that a breeder society is to keep and preserve the breed genes! KEEP and PRESERVE! Of course that some breeding programs are necessary time by time for one or another reason, but they can simply make clear what are the crosses and what are not, and keep in clear for all!

The Big Show / Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« on: January 14, 2020, 05:25:33 AM »
Dairy Shorthorns in Uk also allowed Holstein, as well as Norwegian Red, Swedish Red, Ayrshire, Illawarras, Red Danish. They starts the crossbredings on the 60's and now is very rare find real pure Dairy Shorthorn on UK without infusions.
Seems like Shorthorn is an extinct breed.

The Big Show / Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« on: January 13, 2020, 06:51:01 AM »
The Heritage Shorthorn register and preservation is a great idea.
Useful cattle there and makes a new option for bloodlines in future.
My unique concern is that bulls are checked based on pedigrees only.
As all here in this forum already read, many and many bulls are pedigrees fake.
I just think that a second and final certificate should be done after a DNA confirmation through philogenetic analysis.
It's a valueable genetics and must to be avoid use it on wrong cows.

Agree with Knabe.
Linebreeding or inbreeding is not the matter. If you choose a good genetics and know what it have in background. Inbreeding is an interesting tool. Just need to know use it.
By the way, so many claimed outcross genetics that will introduce genetics defects, high BW, narrow butts (we raise a beef breed!!), thin ugly necks, coffin heads, leggy animals, makes inbreeding the lesser problem for the breed.
I will ever use linebreeding to use claimed great sires that will bring me a pandora box on her calves.

The Big Show / Re: Dover/Coalpit/Orion
« on: December 04, 2019, 01:50:36 PM »
Looking some pedigrees, got some XGR in front of pedigree numbers. What it's means?

What is the BISS Element 79 370Z frame size.....
Some calves born with 45 kg and her EPD for BW is around + 4....
It's right.

The Big Show / Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« on: September 16, 2019, 08:19:32 AM »
Charles Colling did,  indeed,  use a bull that was one-half Galloway.   In the year 1791,  a neighbor of Colling had two Galloway heifers that he contracted to be bred to the bull Bollingbroke (86).   One,  a red,  polled heifer had a roan  bull calf in the year 1792.  This bull was bred to an old cow who had not had a calf in two years which resulted in a bull Grandson of Bollingbroke (280) and born in the year 1794.    Grandson of Bollingbroke (280) was used moderately.    Foljambe (263) was born in 1787 and therefore could not have been sired by any one of these Galloway cross bulls!   Furthermore,  there has never been any mention in Shorthorn history books that Foljambe (263) had any Galloway breeding.
The article on Heritage Shorthorns deals with the Native Shorthorn,  which,  by definition does not have any of the crosses which have occurred in the past 75 years of Shorthorn breeding.  Black noses appearing on some of those crossed-up modern Shorthorns are not the same as the black  noses appearing historically in the Shorthorn breed.

You is right.
I make confusion regarding the bulls name.
Sorry for my mistake.

The Big Show / Re: Old semen prices
« on: September 16, 2019, 08:17:07 AM »
I think that the Stormalong is kinda considered to be the father of the os genetic condition in the Red Angus breed.

Think that you already mentioned this. OS and double muscle too.

The Big Show / Re: Old semen prices
« on: September 16, 2019, 08:16:17 AM »
any canadian association verified females down there?

ie, did anyone buy some embryos from canada and get females on the ground?

if so, then that semen can be used to generate a male, quarrantine him and send back semen.

Yes. Some years ago some embryos and semen from canadian Maine Anjou were imported to Brazil. Manitou herd was the source.
On last two years have not news if the breeding plan follow ahead.
Months ago was asked to inspect a couple females for register, the info I got was that these females were from same embryos pack imported previously. Think that will inspect it in next months.
I plan to chat with the owner and try flush the females with Echard semen.

The Big Show / Re: Old semen prices
« on: September 15, 2019, 10:51:19 AM »
i forgot which maine stuff you had.  echard?

Yes, Echard.

The Big Show / Re: Old semen prices
« on: September 14, 2019, 08:24:52 AM »
Is any of the Shorthorn exportable to the US? O0

Don't know Mark.
Possibly not!
Sanitary protocols are very exclusionary for old semen.

The Big Show / Old semen prices
« on: September 13, 2019, 01:47:47 PM »
Hi guys.
I own some semen from old bulls. Semen produced on 60's and 70's from Shorthorn, Hereford and Aberdeen Angus bulls.
I need know how much could cost each straw him, as have some enquiries to sale some ones.
Some examples of bulls I own, RR Rito 8799 (AA), Pinnacle of Wye (AA), PBC 707 1M D3226 (AA), Elban Bardolier B655 (AA), Beckton Stormalong 751-626 (RA), RRR Burke 787 (RA), Britisher Wetmore 50 (HH), RHJ Rollo 0120-914 (PH), DH Happy Canadian 1 (PH), Crown Robert 2 (HH - UK), Free Town Vanguard (HH - UK), Lone Pine Grand Society (SH), Mandalong Super Flag (SH), Meriwong Smuggler (SH), Silverleigh Flag 4J (SH), Kinnaber Leader 9th (SH), Pleasand Dawn Seal (SH).

Hope to get some numers.
Thank you all.

The Big Show / Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« on: September 13, 2019, 01:08:04 PM »
Black noses....OK.

White wild cattle is said to be part of the original stock that produced the improved Durham. Many literature describe it.
On middle 1700, Charles Colling used a half blood red Galloway bull that produces Foljambe...Galloway have black noses. It was described as Alloy blood.
Irish cattle have not pedigree accurate description, so, all options are open for Ayrshire, Holstein, Friesian and more.
Chianina have black noses and he is in some pedigrees.

So....black noses are on the genes....you must to decide to cut off or to keep in it.
I just cut off!

The Big Show / Re: Myostatin gene
« on: July 23, 2019, 06:03:45 PM »
The only people who even hint that Shorthorns are unadulterated are the native breeders. However when you consider that: forms of double muscling were around in the 19th century, and that a number of the breeds exhibiting " this and that"-(Particularly Maines) are directly descended from Shorthorns ; then its not as much fun as a witch hunt-its an acknowledgement by most of the persons responding to this thread that you need to have an idea of "what you got"-And breed accordingly.- Cows 101 O0

Mark...agree and don't agreed!
Yes, the list of double muscling breeds have lots of ones with Shorthorn influence as Belgian Blue, Maines, Normando (discovered it soon). But, all these  ones also have on the other side of your genetics native local breeds from northwest Europe. So the DM gene can to be originated from mother breeds side. Just a speculation.

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